Towing without Brakes ?

[mick]

Originally Posted by mister p

what's a "map book"? Is it like a bible book or a dictionary book?

[wavelength]

The seller's defence would simply be that it was not intended for use on the road as they had clearly stated

sorta I have to put this on the receipt "not to be used on the roads in the uk until put into a roadworthy condition" nudge nudge wink wink! Here s the keys for the car and there is petrol in it nudge nudge..or I'll help you back up to the trailer now eh more nudges and winks! Judges may be half asleep, or even fully on the odd occasion but they aint stupid! Its been tried and it dont work.
So cap jack you think its ok for some trader or unscrupulous private (sort of perhaps) guy to unload a deathtrap onto an unsuspecting buyer, watch him or her drive it away knowing that it might kill them or some kid at the first corner. You may perhaps think differently if it was your kid killed, or your daughter who had bought it.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by mister p

This is simply to have the law in words and allow it to be argued. The seller's defence would simply be that it was not intended for use on the road as they had clearly stated. The fact that the buyer turned up with no means of legally removing the purchase does not put the blame on the seller.
Caveat Emptor.....Buyer beware. Still holds water (pardon the pun). There is no defence for knowingly buying an unroadworthy vehicle and then using it on the highway. In this case, "I've just bought it and been told it's OK" simply DOES NOT hold water.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. If you knowingly sell an unroadworthy vehicle to someone for use on the road you are both breaking the law. Just because one person is guilty of an offence does not mean the other can not be prosecuted also. Caveat Emptor may well apply to the civil part of the transacton, but not to the RTA.

[mister p]

Hold on a second, if you sell a car with an MOT then it's clearly intended for road use, trader or private. If it has no MOT but is a car that immediately disqualifies it from being acceptable for the road. You're still allowed to sell it.
If the buyer of a car that does not have an MOT then chooses to drive the car home that is his/her perogative and also his choice and the blame and crime lies with the buyer. If an accident arises from them buyer using the car illegally then the seller is not to blame.
If I sell you a knife and then you go and stab someone with it, you're seriously not going to try and pin that crime onto me because I didn't tell you that the consequence of you pushing the blade into somebody may result in loss of life.

[kerny]

[mister p]

Originally Posted by Poly

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. If you knowingly sell an unroadworthy vehicle to someone for use on the road you are both breaking the law. Just because one person is guilty of an offence does not mean the other can not be prosecuted also. Caveat Emptor may well apply to the civil part of the transacton, but not to the RTA.

What I'm saying is that knowingly selling a dodgy vehicle and not informing the owner is a crime.
Telling the buyer that what you're selling is dodgy and shouldn't be driven or used is not a crime. The buyer has now been informed.
You say "Listen the wheels are about to fall off, you need a trailer to collect this", and the guy turns up and says "f**k it, it'll be ok" and hands you the money. Are you legally bound to refuse the transaction or have you done everything in your power to alert the buyer to the shortcomings of his purchase.
It's the buyer's responsibility to check his purchase and the seller's to be honest about the description of the product.
If the buyer then chooses to use that vehicle despite your warnings, the buyer is then responsible.
That's all.

[mister p]

How's the popcorn k ?

[kerny]

Originally Posted by mister p

How's the popcorn k ?

Just waiting for the other Mr P's reply

[Poly]

Originally Posted by mister p

Hold on a second, if you sell a car with an MOT then it's clearly intended for road use, trader or private. If it has no MOT but is a car that immediately disqualifies it from being acceptable for the road. You're still allowed to sell it.

- An MoT certificate is not a guarantee of roadworthiness.
- An MoT certificate only relates to the time of issue.
- You can drive a (roadworthy) vehicle on the road without an MoT to go to a previously arrange MoT test.
- Not all vehicles (including trailers) require MoTs; but selling them in an unroadworthy condition is still illegal.

So MoT is a red herring.

If I sell you a knife and then you go and stab someone with it, you're seriously not going to try and pin that crime onto me because I didn't tell you that the consequence of you pushing the blade into somebody may result in loss of life.

Thats a reasonable analogy - you are not guilty of stabbing someone just the same as the seller of a car is not guilty of driving the car. But there are obviously specific laws relating to the sale of knives too. If you sold me an illegal knife (e.g. a flick knife) whether I kill someone with it or not, and I get stopped by the police and tell them where I got it - you may also have committed an offence and expect a visit. If you sell me an 'ordinary' (legal) knife then just as with selling a road worthy vehicle there is no risk.

The law is there in black and white for you to see in the previous link I posted I'm really not sure what you are arguing about. You might not agree with it but that is what it says. If you want an interpretation of what it means google "trading standards unroadworthy vehicle" and you will find various.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by mister p

What I'm saying is that knowingly selling a dodgy vehicle and not informing the owner is a crime.
Telling the buyer that what you're selling is dodgy and shouldn't be driven or used is not a crime. The buyer has now been informed.
You say "Listen the wheels are about to fall off, you need a trailer to collect this", and the guy turns up and says "f**k it, it'll be ok" and hands you the money. Are you legally bound to refuse the transaction or have you done everything in your power to alert the buyer to the shortcomings of his purchase.:

You would be trying to claim a defence under s75(6)b:

A person shall not be convicted of an offence under this section in respect of the supply or alteration of a motor vehicle or trailer if he proves—
(b)that he had reasonable cause to believe that the vehicle or trailer would not be used on a road in Great Britain, or would not be so used until it had been put into a condition in which it might lawfully be so used,

the red is my emphasis to highlight (a) the burden of proof is on YOU [unlike most matters where the burden in on the prosecution] (b) you have reasonable cause to believe it... now the scenario you describe does not fit with that.

Yes you should not complete the transaction.

[kerny]

Polly you really must reinstate your old avatar.... it's you

[mister p]

If you have informed and been informed and can provide evidence as such then that is reasonable in the eyes of the law. As long as the seller can provide evidence then that's fine.
AND MY STANCE IS THAT THE SELLER SHOULD ALWAYS INFORM THE BUYER OF DEFFICIENCIES.
Otherwise how are "barn finds" sold, MOT failures, projects, £50 trailers in need of repair?
Nobody expects the buyer to actually run them home simply because it's a vehicle.
But some idiots do. Then they try and apportion the blame for their dodginess onto righteous and just citizens.

[kerny]

Sorry about the popcorn mister p but I cant eat any more so do you mind if I have a instead

[mister p]

I'm heading for a beer too, can't add anymore on this one. Cheers k

[kubcat]

Originally Posted by Poly

s75 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (Road Traffic Act 1988) does indeed make it illegal to supply an unroadworthy vehicle for use on the road. There are some get outs, and the rules for trade seller are slightly different from private ones but either way watching someone hook up a dodgy trailer to their car would probably ruin the defence.
absolutely

I believe it used to be wavelength's job to prosecute people for this sort of stuff. However I don't know if he knows of any case where a private seller actually got prosecuted having clearly stated in an ad that it was not roadworthy?

I am sure this is not the major factor in this, but are you sure your system is better?

Road fatalities
/100k inhabs pa / 100k vehicles / 1Bn vehicle km

UK 3.59 7 5.7
USA 12.3 15 8.5

Poly, where did you get the fatality data? I would like to compare Australia.

[rocknrolla]

Originally Posted by jambo

Why oh why do you have to bring race into a thread about trailer wts! My good friend and fellow Scot was commenting on the language content not Race!!

Sent from my iPhone using Rib.net

What you on abt RACE 100M or 1500m ,and wats wrong with my language bodach

[Poly]

Originally Posted by kubcat

Poly, where did you get the fatality data? I would like to compare Australia.

List of countries by traffic-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Australia: 5.71	     8	       5.8

the data on Wikipedia seems to come from the WHO.

[kubcat]

Originally Posted by Poly

List of countries by traffic-related death rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Australia: 5.71 8 5.8

the data on Wikipedia seems to come from the WHO.

Thanks

[rocknrolla]

Originally Posted by mister p

What's a "map book"? Is it like a bible book or a dictionary book?

They are books you read when you do not have the answers,try the Beano looey or home help

[zurk]

its fine. ive towed a 3000 kg 35 ft RV, 4 tires and no brakes with a chevy v8 long bed pickup 4000 miles without any problems. just keep a huge following distance and brake gently. you will feel the trailer push the vehicle and use up your distance. as long as you think of your vehicle as a large train rather than a car it will be ok. drive carefully.