Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 
Old 10 February 2004, 22:54   #1
Member
 
Country: UK
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4
Tornado 6m cracks

Hello, can anyone help with Tornados?

I'm looking at a Tornado 6m, and noticed cracks across the inner chine mouldings on the hull bottom. There is one crack across the chine about 2m from the bow, and another a metre or so aft. One has water oozing out. The other side is similar and it is only on the chine closest to the keel. Interestingly, I have seen these exact cracks on another, smaller, Tornado. There don't seem to be any other cracks anywhere.
I accept that cracks can happen, even on a 1996 boat, but don't want too much water in the hull. What is inside to absorb water on these Tornados? Timber, ply, foam (absorbent?). Is it anything to worry about, and is it just a matter of grinding out and building up, or does it herald more sinister problems?

Apart from this, are there any issues with 6m Tornado of this age (1996), and are they good tough boats? (I know about tubes, but can retube with Hypalon).

Thanks
Michael
__________________

__________________
mburnford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 February 2004, 14:02   #2
Member
 
Country: Finland
Town: Tampere
Make: Atlantic 21, Avon SR4.0
Length: 6,9 m
Engine: Mercury F60 EFI x2
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 117
Tornados

Tornado use plywood covered with laminate in hull structures. A boat with cracks is a bomb, I really don't advice you to buy it, wooden parts are rottening already I suppose.

It's sad to see big RIBbuilders pushing out below average quality. I think a quality RIB should take at least 10 years of ride without problem, if just else than all-time super-extreme driving is the main use. I just heard during Helsinki Boat Show about 9.5 metre Scorpion that went into pieces last summer. The boat operated two seasons as a seal-watching charter-trip boat, but last autumn the crew noted that boat is broken. They took it to the repairer who reported that virtually every part of the boat was broken, nearly all structures delaminated and teared off the hull. The boat was powered by 2x225 Hondas and did some 60 knots. I'm not sure, how this case ended, but as far as I heard, there are no possibilities to repair the boat due very extensive and expensive damages.
__________________

__________________
Pitkis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 February 2004, 14:08   #3
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Boat name: SMH Rib / War Shot
Make: Ribtec / Scorpion
Length: 4m +
Engine: 100hp Yam/150hp opt
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,060
RIBase
Cracks

Michael,

I take it from your description that the cracks are transverse. If so these are likely to be located in way of interior bulkheads. I find that it is not uncommon to see gelcoat crazing at bulkhead locations or even along the roots of the spray rails on fast boats.

Generally if the crazing / cracking is very fine it should be possible to grind them out and fill with gelcoat. However if they have opened up at all it is likely that they extend into the underlying GRP.

If there is water oozing out then it is possible that they pass the full thickness of the hull skin. If this is the case it will be very difficult to carry out an effective repair without gaining access from inside.

Repairing hull cracks is often one of those jobs which you don't know the extent of until you have fully opened them up.

Regards


Duncan
__________________
Searider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 February 2004, 18:17   #4
Member
 
Country: UK
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4
Duncan and Pitkis, thanks for that.

Yes the crack is traverse. It is as if the hull flexed in and the raised chine, about 25mm, now in tension, cracked across. The one oozing water must be through the gelcoat. Do the chines on these boats form a closed space, or will the water be from the bilge? There doesn't seem to be any way into the inner side of the hull skin.

There are 2 easily visible one side, one the other, and another smaller Tornado has them also. Maybe all Tornado owners should look underneath!

Michael
__________________
mburnford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 February 2004, 18:43   #5
Member
 
Country: Ireland
Town: Dublin
Boat name: wizzard
Make: REDBAY
Length: 7m +
Engine: 225 optimax
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 835
stress

I think this may not be so serious, sounds bad looks bad, doesnt necessarly mean the boat is finished or falling apart, stress on the hull is huge,its bigger more agressive crackes I would worry about this sounds minor and repairable to me cheers gavin
__________________
www.dublinsislands.com

WHEN THE CAT IS AWAY THE MICE GO TO REDBAY..............
gavin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 February 2004, 19:05   #6
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Portsmouth
Boat name: Sting
Make: Tornado 6.8
Length: 6m +
Engine: Yam 200 HPDI
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 645
Send a message via MSN to Andy
I suggest you ask Barnett Marine, Laurence is your man. They can be found at www.ribs.co.uk. Talk him through the issue, he is very helpfull. I have owned ribs for over 20 years and he has had an outstanding reputation for all of that time and probably longer.

In my experience Tornados are very well made and always have been. They are a solid build however as with everything built by hand mistakes can happen and maybe this is a bum boat.

Also get as much history on the boat as possible, you don't know how its been treated or what its been used for.

However:

I would not touch it at all, there is no need for you to take on the hassles this defect could cause down the line. There are lots of boats to choose from at the moment. Don't be put off by Tornado's they are good work boats ... in fact I like them so much I have one!
__________________
Andy

www.badviz.com
Andy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 February 2004, 19:52   #7
Member
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Make: HumberOceanOffshore
Length: 8m +
Engine: Volvo KAD300/DPX
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,596
This is a personal opinion. I would not buy a rib with transverse bulkheads which are attached to the hull. They're just going to be stress raisers.

I don't doubt that such construction is feasible if the hull is of such a thickness that flexing is very limited but, I'd put a penny to a pound that the hull panels of a typical rib/hardboat flex a considerable distance in rough use.
__________________
JW.
jwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 February 2004, 21:29   #8
Member
 
LAL BMC Ltd's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Welwyn Garden City
Boat name: XS Rib
Make: XS Ribs
Length: 9m +
Engine: Mercury 300 Verado
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 14
A Reply From Tornado

Re the cracks, the hull on any craft takes a pounding and a lot will depend on how a craft is used. If there is an in deck locker then things crashing around in here will manifest them selves as cracks on the outside.

We have found over the years that most of the damage as described often is a result not of use at sea but either the wrong road trailer or failing to strap the boat down properly on the right road trailer and the boat "leaping" up an down on the "points" of contact on the trailer.

This can be agrevated where a craft is towed with high deck loads (Diving Gear ?) etc

As to whether it is serious this can only be acessed by some one who REALLY KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING AT checking the boat over.

As to longitudinal or cross braces, most craft have cross braces and some have both, however neither is right or wrong or mutually exclusive. As to how long something should last, this depends on use and care, we have clients who put 2-3,000 hours a year on to a boat, others who do a mere 50.

As to this specific craft, send me some pictures of the damage along with overall pictures of the craft, trailer, deck, engine etc etc and I will make some further comments.

Laurence lock for BMC Ltd / Tornado
__________________
LAL BMC Ltd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 February 2004, 23:21   #9
Member
 
Country: UK
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 4
Laurence

Thank you. Yes, I can see that trailers have to be fitted correctly.
This one does not seem to have any locker where something could leap about, apart from the anchor right up in the bow.

Where can I find this "some one who REALLY KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE LOOKING AT"? I'll try to get some pics for you.

Michael
__________________
mburnford is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 February 2004, 23:41   #10
Member
 
LAL BMC Ltd's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Welwyn Garden City
Boat name: XS Rib
Make: XS Ribs
Length: 9m +
Engine: Mercury 300 Verado
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 14
The comment about knowledge of craft relates to the fact that I am some what amused when I listen to the owner of "a" craft explaining how all Ribs are.

We make 200 + boats a year and retail another 100 + from other manufacturers and over the past 20 years of doing this have seen just about every failure that could be "our fault" and most others that could not be and the one thing that has come to light is that there is no pattern and often no reason why something goes wrong, is just does. When you indentify a pattern you change to eliminate it.

Tornado like most manufacturers will have learnt by use how to improve their craft, this with the dramatic improvement in materials results in a constant evolution of the craft.

So pics, where the boat is, precise age, serial number, motor fitted, trailer used, how many owners and from all of this I will point you in the right direction of people who can help you if that is not us !
__________________
LAL BMC Ltd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 February 2004, 23:48   #11
Member
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Make: HumberOceanOffshore
Length: 8m +
Engine: Volvo KAD300/DPX
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,596
Quote:
Originally posted by LAL BMC Ltd
...... and often no reason why something goes wrong, is just does......
__________________
JW.
jwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 February 2004, 23:59   #12
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Margate / Ramsgate
Boat name: Bumbl
Make: Scorpion
Length: 8m +
Engine: Yanmar diesel
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,837
Laurence, a question about a tornado 4.8 if i may.

We bought the boat new in about 2000 from yourselfs with a Yam 30 fitted. After 18 months the control cables became very stiff and i had to replace them. I assumed this to be lack of maintance (club boat). Another year on and the cables became stiff again - but this time i was sure i'd looked after them. This time, (somewhat through mis-use when the cables were stiff but never-the-less caused by said cables) the control box became broken and needed replacing aswell.

Consultation with the local marine dealer concluded the bend radius imposed by trying to route said cables 'neatly' under the seat and throught the clear plastic tube and then up to the engine was far too small - not only against the reccomendations of the cable manufacturers but more importantly causing them to fail. I've now re-routed them with minimal bends and the boat is far easier to drive as a result, but i must say this has cost £250-£300 in parts to acheive.

I realise it's nice to have neat routing of cables and a clear deck but it would seam this is a false economy? Is this normal?

Your comments and opinion are invited!
__________________
Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 February 2004, 07:33   #13
Member
 
LAL BMC Ltd's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Welwyn Garden City
Boat name: XS Rib
Make: XS Ribs
Length: 9m +
Engine: Mercury 300 Verado
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 14
Neat installation is the most required criteria in most new boat sales however like many things cable technology has changed over the past few years quite dramtically as have costs of these new cables.

This is one of the patterns I speak of, as you say for a year they were fine but the manufacture of the cable / routing did not allow it to stay so. Now with the advent of Platinum, Mirraglide etc cables and the massive reduction in cable pricing we have upgraded cables on all new craft to the new generations of cables.

When Mirraglide first came out a few years ago they were £150 + each and it is probable that on a boat costing £6-8 K an extra £300 at point of purchase would probably not have been acceptable and would have put us at a disadvantage price wise if we had included them from the word go. (as no other Rib company did)

There is also a side issue here of Teleflex changing the manufacture of their standard 33 C cables to keep costs down and cables such as yours "failing" prematurely compared to the life expectancy we had experienced previously.
The smaller craft by their nature have tighter bends in them and though stiff cables can happen in any length of craft it was an issue primarily withh 33 c's of this vintage in sub 5 m boats.

Did you come back to us when you had the problem ??

One comment I would make, whilst fiully accepting cable routing is the primary source of cable stiffness, is that we often find in smaller working boats is that the cables are prone to damage at the point of entry in to the motor, this is often caused by kinking of the outer casing when the motor is trimmed up with "kit" in the rear of the craft, racing marks, people, kit bags, sails whatever.

I have not kept a detailed note of this but probably in 70% + of "stiff" throttles brought to our attention we have shown the owner evidence of damage to the cables that is probably a contributory factor to the stiffness.

As with all manufacturers we NEED feed back from our customers to allow us to move forward.

Laurence
__________________
LAL BMC Ltd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 February 2004, 08:10   #14
Member
 
LAL BMC Ltd's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Welwyn Garden City
Boat name: XS Rib
Make: XS Ribs
Length: 9m +
Engine: Mercury 300 Verado
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 14
JW

Prehaps to make it clear to you when the line is quoted out of context I should have said

and often no APPARENT reason why something goes wrong, it just does

Cracked hull could be caused by;

Faulty Design
Faulty manufacture
Failing repair done some years ago after major accidental trauma
Hitting a rock or other under water obstructions resulting in symptoms manifesting them selves some time after the incident
Bad trailering
Repeated drying out on uneven surfaces (Craft can dry on the same point, litterally, once we had a ridge caused by an RS J in the mud under a drying boat)
Simple failure of the hull after life expectancy surpassed in either hours of use or years of life
Items crashing around in side the hull
Overpowering
Unauthorised modifications to the boat
Unsuitable use practices (pushing 15 m race yachts at full throttle for prolonged periods with the tubes soft to get a better grip for instance, load thus borne on the hull)

The list is almost endless and though the sympton can often be the same the cause sometimes is not.

Patient on phone to a Fracture Clinic: Dr Dr my foots hurts I think I must have broken it
Dr: Ah you must have broken it.
Patient: That is what I think
Dr: I agree
Patient: Then the axe stuck in it has nothing to do with the pain ?

I do not think any of us can with out all the facts, motor hp, who & how installed, exact age of craft, sight / pictures of craft inside and out, trailer, method of strapping, idea of use it has had offer any view on an idividual case.

Hopefully I will get these and we can take it from there.

Regards
__________________
LAL BMC Ltd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 February 2004, 12:23   #15
Member
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Make: HumberOceanOffshore
Length: 8m +
Engine: Volvo KAD300/DPX
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,596
I was just winding you up a wee bit, Lawrence.

It appears to have worked.
__________________
JW.
jwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 February 2004, 12:40   #16
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Newcastle
Make: Zapcat
Length: 4.2
Engine: 50Hp
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 61
Hi Michael,
getting back to the original question, at the end of the day it's a buyers market out there and it's your hard earned your spending. There's plenty of Ribs out there for sale, I personally would walk away and find a boat that doesn't haven't cracks in the hull and water oozing out, leave that hassle for someone else to worry about.
__________________

__________________
fatboy500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT. The time now is 15:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.