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Old 06 October 2007, 01:37   #1
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Red diesel consultation

If anyone hasn't seen it yet, the HM Revenue and Customs consultation document is here: http://rib.net/download/energyproductsconsulthmrc.pdf

It's been out for a few weeks, but you still have until the end of this month to get your comments to them. It makes unusually interesting reading!

The preferred option is to continue selling red diesel to everyone, but for leisure users to be charged the full duty. It will be up to the seller to record the payments and make a return to HMRC.

There will be no way of checking whether the fuel in a tank is duty paid or not, and other than self-regulation by the sellers it seems likely that there will be little enforcement activity.

We estimate that the revenue gain from the expiry of the boat derogation is in the area of £10 to £15m a year. It follows that this is the maximum additional revenue at risk from private boating if, for example, boat owners were allowed to continue using red diesel but misused the scheme by (depending on the option adopted) misleading RDCO suppliers as to nature of their boat (ie commercial/ domestic), failing to submit returns or submitting false repayment claims. HMRC’s enforcement effort must be proportionate to this risk. Taken in the context of a total yield of £24bn (05/06) from oils, the private pleasure craft industry would account for 0.06% of the total revenue.

It almost makes you think that it is something that has been forced upon HMRC and they think that it's more bother than it's worth . . .

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Old 06 October 2007, 01:58   #2
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Private pleasure craft will continue to be able to use red diesel
legitimately for purposes other than propulsion
3,000 litres of red please.... I'm expecting a cold winter!
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Old 06 October 2007, 02:25   #3
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Interesting....

...as far as I know, the Frenchies still get to use red in their boats, and no plans to change this.

Don't go using your UK heating oil in your diesel boats though. For the most part, it's kerosene, or very close to it, that is used to heat UK homes, and although your diesel engine would probably work on it, you can't be sure of long term results.

In France, the red heating oil IS diesel, so no problems there.
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Old 06 October 2007, 05:30   #4
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Ok, so it's going to be "self regulation" - so how is Mr fuel pontoon going to know wether I'm using my charter rib for business or pleasure?
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Old 06 October 2007, 06:01   #5
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Ok, so it's going to be "self regulation" - so how is Mr fuel pontoon going to know wether I'm using my charter rib for business or pleasure?

At £5.53 an hour I doubt he'll care.
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Old 06 October 2007, 06:03   #6
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Ok, so it's going to be "self regulation" - so how is Mr fuel pontoon going to know wether I'm using my charter rib for business or pleasure?
One tip Tim do not put diesel in your boat!
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Old 06 October 2007, 07:36   #7
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I bought a ton the other day and it cost me 29 p a litre ...how much is it on the pontoon pumps now
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Old 06 October 2007, 08:04   #8
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It almost makes you think that it is something that has been forced upon HMRC and they think that it's more bother than it's worth .

It has been forced on them.. it is no more than a measure to reduce rebated fuel fraud, and increase the tax take for the treasury. In the scope of this, peole who are considered ligitimate (or not) user of rebated fuels have come under the spotlight.

The construction industry has had the RDCO scheme for a couple of years now and its implementation has proved something of a nightmare for HMR&C

Enforcement is a farce IMO and HMR&C dont even know their own rules with regard to this, as I have caught them out with some spectacular ineptitude on their part.

Trouble is.. Gordon Brown wants to increase his tax take one way or another.

I wonder just how much extra beurocracy this has created, and really how much has been achieved with the scheme as a whole.

One thing is for sure, its another task expected to be carried out by many already hard pressed business owners, in monitoring & recording the sale of it without recompense from the government.
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Old 06 October 2007, 10:16   #9
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...as far as I know, the Frenchies still get to use red in their boats, and no plans to change this.

Don't go using your UK heating oil in your diesel boats though. For the most part, it's kerosene, or very close to it, that is used to heat UK homes, and although your diesel engine would probably work on it, you can't be sure of long term results.

In France, the red heating oil IS diesel, so no problems there.
Its fine to use with a bit of added cooking oil for extra lube - trouble is it's now dyed yellow!!!

I suspect the new ruling will hurt the marina fuel pontoons - they will HAVE to comply - especially if they are council run like ours is.

I should imagine the pontoons will soon be awash with the sheen of spilt diesel from jerry cans.......
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Old 06 October 2007, 11:47   #10
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It seems obvious to me that the government and HMRC are really fed up with the whole affair.

They are obviously trying to find a way of minimising the cost of the change to businesses and private users too - when was the last time you heard a government department suggest a voluntary tax collection scheme?

The consequences of getting it wrong will be the closure of many fuelling points around our coasts, thus creating a major safety issue. Already, a large proportion of callouts to motor boats by the RNLI are to vessels that have run out of fuel. This could only get worse, especially in our more remote areas.

The answer of course is to vote for UKIP in our forthcoming elections. Then we can tell those interfering busybodies of the Common Market/EEC/EU, most of whom have no seafaring knowledge (some may never have seen the sea) to p**s off and leave us to run our own country the way we want to.

Of course, if we all (suppliers and customers) practised a bit of civil disobedience and refused to have anything to do with the scheme, it may all go away. That's what's kept our pounds and ounces, gallons and miles.
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Old 06 October 2007, 15:04   #11
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It makes me mad.

This Eurocrap ruling really irritates me . Now at the moment I have a Rib with an outboard, so no immedite impact . However, having some long term plans, I am thinking of saving up for a 30' motor cruiser (mini gin palace) as a retirement plan. Assuming I would wish to cruise around 3000nm per year at around 2 litres of Diesel per mile then a £3000 fuel bill (which I could just afford) doubles to £6000 (which I would struggle to fund and justify).

The Channel Islands aren't stupid enough to be influenced by this Euro nonsense so I guess the rich types with massive boats in the UK will simply go there for fuel and put a few thousand litres in their craft .


Here is a copy of the letter I sent to HMRC a couple of weeks ago. My actual thoughts have been added in blue

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IMPACT ON NEW TAXATION ON RED DIESEL FOR MOTOR CRUISERS

Dear Sir / Madam (useless Government t$@% who probably won't read this anyway), I have just read with interest and some sadness (bloody annoyance , you a@%e) on the failure of the UK to control it’s prices on fuel, due to our the remote rulings from the EU (fat Euro gits who should mind their own business).

Under the options considered, only option A seems workable but the increase in taxation would, I feel, spell the end of the UK pleasure boating industry and results in the loss of thousands of UK jobs.

My reasoning is as follows.

I am saving very hard for retirement where I had intended to buy a UK built offshore cruiser boat (~30ft), at a purchase price of around £100,000.

As a boat owner, I would also spend money at the marina on berthing, at chandleries, at restaurants as we visit different places etc etc.

With a desire to travel around quite a lot, the proposed increase in fuel taxes would simply make it unaffordable to run.

Therefore, I will now most probably spend my money abroad on overseas holidays and rent a boat there.

The result is a loss - loss for the UK industries and the Government.

Multiply my plan by a few thousand users and you see my prediction of a downturn in the pleasure boat industry and likely no additional revenues being raised through tax overall.


Yours,



etc etc
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Old 06 October 2007, 15:14   #12
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How about Option D: A referendum on Euro interference, lets get back to the good old days of Brits deciding British issues.
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Old 06 October 2007, 15:42   #13
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Most European countries just ignore a law if they don't agree with it - the French have done it for years. In Britain the jobsworths get hold of something and then force it on us will all the might they can.....

For example the British fishing boats are inspected and watched all the time - the spaniosh choose to ignore what theirs get up to!!!
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Old 06 October 2007, 15:53   #14
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Wow, that means the French and the Spanish are now smarter that the British. Nelson must be turning in his grave.
Perhaps we should give up and demo Trafalar Square and send the column to the French with a note saying " we give up"
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Old 06 October 2007, 17:06   #15
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Wow, that means the French and the Spanish are now smarter that the British. Nelson must be turning in his grave.
Perhaps we should give up and demo Trafalar Square and send the column to the French with a note saying " we give up"
Emm .. how about today 2007 Limey ?Hmm.... Lets have some relevant debate on the subject with facts please ?

As far as I know.. current thinking is that all rebated fuels would preferentially be abolished , but the difficulty is that the rebated supply is so embedded, that it cannot be easily distinguished as to who , and who should not continue to receive the rebated fuel, this is the hornets nest that is being stirred, and like it or lump it, leisure boating is one of the categories that is being looked at, as a tax gain
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Old 06 October 2007, 17:14   #16
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It would appear that the sea around the Uk is the next big debate. I live 50 miles from the sea and my local village monthly magazine this month is full of what the government intends to do. Seems strange because we haven't even got a canal or river or lake.
It probably strikes a chord with the local greenies and old folk and is less controversial than paying more for bin emptying or congestion charging though. Strikes the fear of god in to me. In reality everything that is done nowadays just means more money to cough up and nothing in return.
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Old 06 October 2007, 18:15   #17
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Emm .. how about today 2007 Limey ?Hmm.... Lets have some relevant debate on the subject with facts please ?

As far as I know.. current thinking is that all rebated fuels would preferentially be abolished , but the difficulty is that the rebated supply is so embedded, that it cannot be easily distinguished as to who , and who should not continue to receive the rebated fuel, this is the hornets nest that is being stirred, and like it or lump it, leisure boating is one of the categories that is being looked at, as a tax gain
Hey muzzy
You are obviously incapable of understanding the bigger picture and there are so many people that have the same problem, hence the problem.
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Old 07 October 2007, 05:30   #18
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In reality everything that is done nowadays just means more money to cough up and nothing in return.
Yup.. thats about the size of it. I think aviation fuel tax exemption is the the one they really want to change if they could, since its potential to bring in revenue is huge, far as I can recollect when it was discussed in 05, there was a massive outcry (not surprisingly) but thats another subject
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Old 28 February 2008, 15:54   #19
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Red Diesel

So thats it then. Full price for leisure users

http://www.ybw.com/auto/newsdesk/200...14mbmnews.html

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Old 28 February 2008, 16:28   #20
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seems to me this won't be policed - HMRC didn't want it in the first place. You can quite legally use the red for heating and no doubt power generation on your boat.

Just remember NEVER to file another passage plan with the coastguard............
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