Question - RibCraft transom, small crack - Page 2

quaoar · 10 March 2009, 11:08

Just gone over the boat with the person from the titek.no (they repair boats and such).

He said it looks like the top of the transom was built right, but that they (the factory?) might have done a bit too much "grinding" of the edges before putting on the paint(look at the last image, you can see that the edges are very diagonal), so that the material going over the top of the transom has been severely weakened and at the moment "torn apart". The result is that the top is coming off from the main body of the transom -I hope this direct Norwegian to English translation is understandable...

He estimated the repair costs to around 15.000 Nkr (~1500 GBP).

slimtim · 10 March 2009, 11:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by quaoar

I hope this direct Norwegian to English translation is understandable...

Perfectly

Thats a very high price though, you could do it yourself for probably less than £100GBP! The hardest bit for you will probably be taking off and storing the engine which I expect you'll have to do for the repairer anyway!

Rogue Wave · 10 March 2009, 11:36

that's what I thought the material cost wil be about 50 pounds over here probaly 100 over there and it is not a difficult job to do yourself, but go for the sellers throat frst!

kitten · 10 March 2009, 11:57

I started this post before the repairer had looked at the boat so now it is academic, but I'm going to post it as it may be of interest.

To decide how much damage there is first you need to know how the thing was put together.
As far as I know there are three main methods of putting a transom together with knees see rough sectioned drawings.
The first is a lump of angle iron bolted through transom and knee then glassed over.
Second is multilayered with the knees glassed to the first transom board with subsiquent boards glassed on top and to the knees.
The third which is the most common is just knees placed against the transom boards and glassed over.
Looking at the photos I would suggest it is the last and by far weakest of the three used here, if that is so then you can see how if the top has cracked and the laminate has pulled from the transom board the knees are only supporting a layer of laminate and not the actual transom. I would suggest that would constitute a serious structural faliure and should be repaired before she goes on the water again.

Bigmuz7 · 10 March 2009, 12:25

I agree with you 100% kitten

Where the damage is evident, can only mean seperation further down, the question is, how far down .. hopefully it wont be that far in this case, since the engine is well within specification.

BassBoy · 10 March 2009, 17:29

Maybe someone from Ribcraft (Jason et al) can tell you (us) which construction method was used?

jwalker · 10 March 2009, 20:37

Going by the last photo and assuming it is the original build, there was never a proper bond of the inner laminating to the top edge of the hull laminate. Not only was there a space before hiding it below the rolled on gel flowcoat, the space was not even properly covered and sealed by the gelcoat. Could even be the space was wide enough that the gel pulled itself back after it was applied!

quaoar · 10 March 2009, 21:17

jwalker, that was what I was thinking after taking the pictures, and why I included that last one.
Also been talking with the previous owner (seller) who says he really have never seen that crack earlier and thinks this might have "cracked" under transport - the gel coat that is.
The point here might be that the crack / gap has always been there, but that the gel coat just split open recently. But if there is a gap there which have existed under the gel coat for a while, doesn't that increase the chances of water damaging the frame?

jwalker · 10 March 2009, 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by quaoar

jwalker, that was what I was thinking after taking the pictures, and why I included that last one.
Also been talking with the previous owner (seller) who says he really have never seen that crack earlier and thinks this might have "cracked" under transport - the gel coat that is.
The point here might be that the crack / gap has always been there, but that the gel coat just split open recently. But if there is a gap there which have existed under the gel coat for a while, doesn't that increase the chances of water damaging the frame?

You could be lucky if that is the case because the small gaps in the gel will not have been submerged and only caused small leakage. However, and it's a big however, if the crack appeared due to transport something must be flexing - could be the inner ply is rotting.
A wee general note here - salt water has a tendency to prevent wood rotting but fresh water will encourage it. It's common in this part of the country for wooden fishing boats to carry some salt water in the bilges.

Rogue Wave · 11 March 2009, 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by quaoar

. But if there is a gap there which have existed under the gel coat for a while, doesn't that increase the chances of water damaging the frame?

that's why I suggested you rop a few test holes into the transom bear the motor it's the part of the transom most likely to be in contact with water

kitten · 11 March 2009, 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

that's why I suggested you rop a few test holes into the transom bear the motor it's the part of the transom most likely to be in contact with water

Imvvho I wouldn't bother with test holes, just get the engine off and attack with JW's angle grinder

quaoar · 12 March 2009, 14:49

Small update

Had another company over to look at the boat. They reached almost the same conclusion as the first company with the exception that they thought the job would prove to be even more expensive than the first company.

The place where the tubes are attached to the transom will also have to come off. The crack is going inn under the rubber (see included image).
Is this a difficult job?
Loosening the the rubber and then gluing it back after the transom is fixed?
If someone could point me towards a guide, article, anything, it would be really helpful and greatly appreciated.

I also spoke to the owner for www.fjordrafting.no (they got some "mad" RIBs, Humber/Capelli/Revengers) who took at look at the images. He was not impressed by the transom construction. What he didn't like was that the supporting beams only go half way up the transom. What he would have wanted to see, was for the support beams to go all the way to the top, thus stiffening the transom and leaving it no room to flex.
His first comment was also interesting. He just said, "Ah! A typical transom failure..."
Been in contact with the seller and we are now trying to solve this together. Seller have said that the RIB has never been used in extreme conditions, only for leisure.

PS.
The boat was a little wet when the image was taken. It rained when the person from the company was there to look at it. It's under plastic when not being scrutinized by people

PeterM · 12 March 2009, 15:28

It seems there may be more going on that is obvious form the pictures . I would guess that what we see as a fairly simple transom capping exercise , may actually be more akin to a re-build.

I would assume this is only the case if the transome structure has been damaged by water ingress & needs more substantial structural work .

I dont feel the removal of the tube attachement ( & re-fitting) should add a huge amount more cost , but it seems that however the damage has occurred there really is no option than to fix it ( if you are keen to keep the boat ) .

Is there a chance that the estimates you have got are high as they are assuming that the transome has water ingress ? I would be tempted to remove some of the current through transom bolts ( aframe in picture ) to see what things look like & IF needed drill some small pilot holes close to the crack ( 1cm ) to see what comes out & and work down until you get to 'good' core. If all is good at 1cm down this should be covered by any repair needed & this is true the further down you go - so you will never see the holes. ( RogueWave suggestion)

Whatever happens I think the engine wil lneed to come off - this you can do yourself with an Engine lift which you could hire or buy to suit. You can also see through the bolt holes to see the core of the transome.

I am not a boat builder - just someone trying to understand why they are quoting so much money to you to fix.

Dirk Diggler · 12 March 2009, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitten

The first is a lump of angle iron bolted through transom and knee then glassed over.

You've been spending too much time with Jonnie Fuller

Dirk Diggler · 12 March 2009, 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackroady

I am not a boat builder - just someone trying to understand why they are quoting so much money to you to fix.

You've sort of answered your own question.

I'd have to say that repairing other peoples shoddy workmanship, is a bit of a pain, as you never know what your going to find until your some way into the job. The estimated cost of 15.000 Nkr seems reasonable to me, afterall the motor has to come off, the tube attachment will need need releasing, then the job needs preparing before you can begin putting it back together, the owner is going to want some form of guarantee so abit of a safety net has to be built in. Then on top of all that, the cost of living is higher than ours, so wages are obviously higher as well!!!

PeterM · 12 March 2009, 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk Diggler

You've sort of answered your own question.

I'd have to say that repairing other peoples shoddy workmanship, is a bit of a pain, as you never know what your going to find until your some way into the job. The estimated cost of 15.000 Nkr seems reasonable to me, afterall the motor has to come off, the tube attachment will need need releasing, then the job needs preparing before you can begin putting it back together, the owner is going to want some form of guarantee so abit of a safety net has to be built in. Then on top of all that, the cost of living is higher than ours, so wages are obviously higher as well!!!

Indeed - BUT if its ONLY the capping to replace then to me £1500 seems a hell of alot ! IF its the whole transom core etc - fair enough .

IF they are quoting for taking off motor & storing it etc maybe , but IF its a price of supplying the boat with all that done already its a lot (to me) .

As you can see lots of IFs - mayeb they are working on worst case IFs - hence the price. Either way its got to be fixed - IF its not that bad you would 'hope' the actual cost is a lot cheaper & they dont still charge a lot as the customer has been 'primed to pay that much anyway. - Yes I'm very cynical about these things

jace · 12 March 2009, 16:53

Hi, we’re in contact with the customer and will advise him directly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassBoy

Dorian/Jason/Charlie...Mark et al.
What is your view? Can you share it with other RC owners. Do we all have something to worry about?

No, if you look at the amount of material and strength around the transom, this is very uncommon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Top banana

If its a 2005 build and only used for leisure purposes then surelly the hull is guaranteed for 5 years from manufacture.

It’s a shame that the seller didn’t bring it to us before shipping abroad, I would have liked to have seen the boat and yes we would have repaired under warranty if it was a defect.

Dirk Diggler · 12 March 2009, 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by jace

No, if you look at the amount of material and strength around the transom, this is very uncommon.

What do you over laminate the transom top with? chopped strand by the look of it.

Bigmuz7 · 12 March 2009, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by quaoar

They reached almost the same conclusion as the first company with the exception that they thought the job would prove to be even more expensive than the first company.

Because if it proves to be a structural problem, which I think it is IMHO, there is a fair amount of work in getting to the stiffening knees and re-bonding them, then re-laminating the whole transom. A proper repair for this problem is not simply capping over it with some mat and resin, and hoping it will all go away, It might for a year, but then it will reappear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by quaoar

Seller have said that the RIB has never been used in extreme conditions, only for leisure.

That was the case with my boat too, before its transom failed and likewise, the outboard had never hit any obstructions, so I believe what he says could be true

Heres the link to my similar problem

http://rib.net/forum/showthread.php?t=24589&

Top banana · 12 March 2009, 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by jace

Hi, we’re in contact with the customer and will advise him directly.

It’s a shame that the seller didn’t bring it to us before shipping abroad, I would have liked to have seen the boat and yes we would have repaired under warranty if it was a defect.

Good to see a positive response from the manufacturer,