moulds

gtflash · 10 March 2005, 14:40

a post on bm got me thinking, if you buy a mould for say a 6.5m hull do you buy the rights to make em aswell. also can you stretch it or shrink it and legally build more in the range without pissing off the people that built the mould as they got one the same size as the range ur turning out..???

also anyone know of any forsale?

Searider · 10 March 2005, 15:07

Ownership of the moulds could quite likely be separate to who owns the rights to the design.

Common deals are to pay a per-boat fee to the owner of the design - ie you pay them for every boat you produce. OR a one off fee for the design where you pay for the design.

Probably best to ask the owner of the moulds who ofns the right to the design and then talk with them about a fair deal.

Consider a mould simply as a tool and not a design.

Brian · 10 March 2005, 15:56

That's got me confused Duncan.
What would be the point, or the value, of buying a mould if I didn't have the right to actually use it for the purpose for which it was produced i.e. to make a boat hull out of?
Conversly, I don't want "the design" do I?
I would not sell "the design" to a third party. But I would want to make a hull or hulls, sell them and even make another mould from the first mould.

Still, as this is legal stuff, I am bound to be wrong. Is anyone on this forum a M'learned Friend?

Jono · 10 March 2005, 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian

That's got me confused Duncan.
What would be the point, or the value, of buying a mould if I didn't have the right to actually use it for the purpose for which it was produced i.e. to make a boat hull out of?....

It kind of depends how the mould was *ahem* "acquired" in the first place.... If it was bought from the designer "legit" or was one of them dodgy moulds that was splashed from an existing hull or mould in a less than honest sort of way.....

If the manufacturer is still in business, would he sell off a mould for a current product?

slimtim · 10 March 2005, 16:22

I would imagine buying a mould would allow you to produce one boat for personal use, although I would guess that you would need permission from the designer to do so (probably the person selling the mould, so it would be part of the deal).

If you wanted to produce more than one boat and sell them on, you then need to come to some sort of arrangement whereby you purchase the rights to the design in a one off payment or pay the designer a % per hull sold.

Its a bit like photographs. If calender company for example bought one of my photos, they could pay for a one off use (which means if they ever wanted to use it again they would pay the fee again) or they could pay a lot more and have the right to use the photograph whenever they please.

Tim

Brian · 10 March 2005, 17:03

Ah, but Tim, you are not selling a photograph are you? You are selling the right to use the image. Diferent I think.

In the case of the mould, I suspect that (assuming, Jono, it is legitimately acquired), that the purchase of the mould embodies an implit right to make hull(s). And unless the contract of purchase specifically excludes it, that right extends to making and re-selling of the hulls.

The above probably explains why I would never have made a lawyer.

slimtim · 10 March 2005, 17:15

I am indeed selling the rights to photographs and I reckon you have a good point about the mould! However also think the comment about the mould being a "tool" is a good point...I think I've just managed to confuse myself

Jono · 10 March 2005, 17:27

Brian,

You come to me and ask me to design and build you a nice new Cat Cracker. I design it and send you the drawings for your approval. You say " Yup that's just what I want".
I then build your nice new plant and provide you with a set of drawings to go with it which you file in a nice big data manual. Ten years down the line, your nice new plant is shagged... tough luck, the warranty is 12 months.. You drag out the drawings and decide you can cut me out of the deal and send those drawings to your local Indian fabricator to knock up another set. Unfortunately, you overlooked the fact that when I quoted you and sold you the plant I put a nice little caveat on the drawing along the lines that these drawings were to build one plant (the one I sold you) and one only. They must not be re-used without the express permission of the designer...Me! ...... Feck! What ya gonna do?...
In an ideal world, yoou ask me nicely and for a not unreasonable fee I allow you to reuse the drawings... Yeah! Right! What happens is, you say " I'm considerably richer than you.... and I'll see you in court......"

One of these days I'm gonna have the balls to stand up and say " OK, I'll see you there then..."....

Searider · 10 March 2005, 17:33

Brian / Tim,

It depends on what basis you were sold the mould and if the vendor has the rights to the design. If he has the rights to the design - ie paid the one off fee to the designer, then he has the rights and can sell them on to you.

If he is paying a per boat fee for the use of the design then I suspect that he does not own the rights and cannot pass them on to you. In this case the purchaser should contact the designer to be sure all is above board.

If the mould was taken from an existing boat in less than certain circumstances then there could be problems if the designer spots his design back in production.

It's a bit like someone selling a colour copier along with some of Tims photos?

Regards

slimtim · 10 March 2005, 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Searider

It's a bit like someone selling a colour copier along with some of Tims photos?

I like the analogy Duncan, but don't give people ideas!

How much does a mould/design have to be changed before it can be classed as a new design therefore no rights to pay? I imagine that the hull form has to change rather than just the length/width etc.

Tim

Neville · 10 March 2005, 18:25

Jono and Searider are correct. Best to check the history of the moulds. A mould without its design rights is worth very little, alot of builders chop there moulds up when they stop using them. Realistically you could take a mould off a bout for the same price as you could make the boat hull for so they arent exactly costly to produce. If you are looking at using a mould to make yourself a one off, you will probably be better buying a hull ready made. There is a knack to GRP and a proffesional builder can make one in a lot less time than the amateur. There is the fun level though and the sense of achievement when you are blasting around on the thing!

ribraff · 10 March 2005, 19:02

Home builds are a way of keeping the cost down but also bear in mind that you will not be able to sell it on the open market.

gtflash · 10 March 2005, 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono

If the manufacturer is still in business, would he sell off a mould for a current product?

pascoe did with sr8s now licensed under ribeye.. so it does happen..

i heard about a ribtec 9m mould for sale, but quite rightly jono i do not see why they would sell it if its legit!!

Ive heard that a change of 5% is sufficient to rubish all rights!! not alot is it but if you buy the mould legit but from the designer/builder but he wont do a deal over the rights!! is it better than splashing? least he gets some money from the deal!!

So if the ribtec is legit and your allowed to build em, what about if you chop off a metre and make a mould now the size of one of ribtecs models??

slimtim · 10 March 2005, 20:24

Is the ribeye not just based on the ocke mannifelt wotsit hull design and the sr8 is still being used but under the pascoe international name?

Also, how do you quantify a change in design? For example, if I got a hull and changed some of the lines, chines etc and then made a mould from it, how do I know how much I need to change to make it into something new and of "my" design?!

Tim

Jackwabbit · 10 March 2005, 21:38

I would have thought if (XYZ) ribs were 6m in length & had 3 chine’s per side and a hull thickness of 3mm with all cables lying on the deck, & mine was 5.9m in length with 4 chine’s per side with a hull thickness of 5mm with all cables under the deck.
HOW could (XYZ) say it was their design? It’s a different length thickness & looks different. (All the changes above would be very easy to do)

It’s now my design I’ve taken something & changed it, (improved it) after all that’s what they all do don’t they? If they didn’t there would only be one Rib manufacturer & as we all know the number of rib manufacturers are growing by the day.
When you purchase a (XYZ) rib you are not just buying the idea of a hull with a tube round it are you? You are surly buying a complete package the hull length, width, height, number of chine’s, deck construction, reinforcing between hull & deck, routing of cables etc, etc, etc.

Searider · 10 March 2005, 22:22

The "design" is the shape of the hull. How thick it is made and where the cables go is another matter.

Westfield Sportscars were threatened with severe litigation in the late 1980s because their car was too similar to Caterhams. It was almost identical. They had to change the body styling and shape. The chassis stayed the same though!

I don't have any first hand knowledge of how a judge would decide if a hull was too similar - will the "new" design hull fit into the "old" design mould?

Perhaps it would be worth contacting someone who should know.

The Tohatsu / Solent / Phantom RIBs are allvery similar.

slimtim · 10 March 2005, 22:35

Its an interesting subject. If I took a hull and say tweaked the chines to make them a little bigger, maybe stuck a planning wedge on the bottom, changed the transom angle etc would I have done enough to make it "my" design?! As you say Duncan, how would a judge decide? Evey case would have to be assessed individually.

Tim

gtflash · 11 March 2005, 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by slimtim

Is the ribeye not just based on the ocke mannifelt wotsit hull design and the sr8 is still being used but under the pascoe international name?

Also, how do you quantify a change in design? For example, if I got a hull and changed some of the lines, chines etc and then made a mould from it, how do I know how much I need to change to make it into something new and of "my" design?!

Tim

i believe pascoe sold the sr8 moulds but i know definatly the moulds. he isnt allowed to make em anymore, my mate asked him and he said NO, maybe he will read this and explain?

Im not sure how you would quantify changes as a % im sure mr fuller would know!! ill post a link in BM see if anyone else knows!!

Jonny Fuller · 11 March 2005, 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtflash

pascoe did with sr8s now licensed under ribeye.. so it does happen..

Actually that's completely wrong.

Pascoe had the licence (from Ocke Mannerfelt) to build the 8m boat as a sterndrive boat only.

A south african lot had the licence to build the OB version.

Niether company 'owned' the rights to the hull design, they just had a licence from Mannerfelt to build them, paying a royalty on each boat 'built and sold', the design remained the property of Ocke Mannerfelt.

Pascoe, rather naughtily built a few OB boats, and the SA bunch found out, got pissed off, and stopped Pascoe building any more.

Ribeye must have had a deal with the SA bunch/Ocke, they didn't 'buy' Pascoes moulds.

I think he (Mark) stopped building the 8m entirely coz there really wasn't that much call for the sterndrive version, and they're a bit prone to stuffing anyway, whereas the 9m hull (B28 Batboat running surface) which he had the licence to build both OB & Sterndrive, was superb.

So, In answer to some comments on this thread, Mark Pascoe owned the mould to the SR8, but didn't own the design (of the hull) only the licence to build them, and pay royalties to Ocke.

Clear as mud?

John Kennett · 11 March 2005, 08:47

Buying a mould

The rights than come with a mould depend entirely on what was agreed with the owner of the rights to the design. This may be the designer, the owner of the mould, or someone else entirely. If the owner of the moulds does not own the design or have permission to use the design, then you will acquire no rights when you buy the mould.

A few of the many possible scenarios:

You buy a mould and the exclusive design rights outright
Then it's yours. You can do whatever you want with it. Make boats, licence it to other boat builders, make copies of the mould and sell them, whatever.

You buy a mould and non-exclusive design rights
You can do whatever you want with it. Make boats, licence it to other boat builders, make copies of the mould and sell them, whatever. It may also have been sold to other people who can also do the same.

You buy a mould with unlimited licence to use it, but you don't own the design
You can use it to make an unlimited number of boats. You may or may not be entitled to sell on your licence with the mould. You can't make copies of the mould unless specifically agreed.

You buy a mould and pay a licence fee each time it is used
You can use it to make an unlimited number of boats (or possibly an agreed number). You may or may not be entitled to sell on your licence with the mould. You can't make copies of the mould unless specifically agreed.

You buy a mould that has been "splashed" and the owner has no legal rights to use it
You have effectively bought stolen property

Buying or licensing a design

If you want want to make your own mould, then you can either design it yourself, commission someone else to design it for you, or use an existing design. Depending on the deal that you can do with the designer or desing owner, the results will be similar to the scenarios for buying a mould, except you'll either end up with a file of CAD drawings, or a plug to make your mould from.

Modifying a design

There are two major issues here.

- What is the right, fair and ethical thing to do
- What you might be able to get away with

If you copy someone else's design outright, or use it as a basis for your design, then you should pay towards the work that has gone into it. However, as it appears to be a difficult and costly exercise to take court action against even blatant design theft, "splashing" a hull (taking a mould off an existing boat) is not uncommon.

Some hull designs have been splashed, modified and resplashed so many times over the years that is can be hard to distinguish who actually owns the legitimate rights. Others are very distinctive and are more easy to protect.

Making a few tweaks here and there may mean that you are unlikely to be successfully prosecuted for stealing someone else's work, but it doesn't necessarily make it right!

John