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Old 28 May 2012, 05:45   #21
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They'd do well to look at the likes of VAG Group, where a 'family' of brands aimed at different aspirational markets and different price points share not just technology/development costs but use 80% or more of the same parts. The Audi A1/VW Polo/SEAT Ibiza/Skoda Fabia are virtually the same cars under the skin, and other manufacturers share, for example, engines.

Without such collaborations, and the economics of scale that they bring, the price of your Ford Fiesta's and Vauxhall Astra's would be double what they are now. If the marine industry were to do likewise, and build more 'Ford Focus' rather than everyone wanting to be a Landrover or Ferrari equivalent, then boating would be more accessible and we wouldn't have to pay more for a basic 5m RIB with engine than you'd pay for the BMW 3-series.

That, or we wait until the Chinese wipe the floor of course.
Actually NSS, we basically already use the same parts. Same material for tubes, same fibreglass, same resin, same acessories - we just shape them diferently and use different quantities of stuff. Just like they do with cars.

Problem is, in a small company like Hydrosport, we have each year 50 customers - ordering 50 different boats. If we ever are stupid enough to produce a boat for stock, we will not be able to sell it. Because it is always the wrong colour, and has the wrong console and the wrong seats.

People do not come to a Ford dealer and ask if they can make a Focus with slightly bigger doors or smaller windows. But they come to us and ask for a console that is 1/2 inch lower. Or wider. Or perhaps with a different grab handle. Or different console back inset. Not to speak of the tubes, I do not think we have made 2 tubes that are exactly the same the last 2 years.

As long as it is like this, then we should not be too worried about the chinese. Which is not the same thing as ignoring them, because if we start to ignore them, then it will not be long before they take over.

As for a 5m rib being more expensive than a BMW 3-series, the problem is always the engine. As long as a 90hp 4 stroke outboard costs more than a car (ex taxes) equipped with the same engine block, it will be difficult to do something about that. Perhaps with chinese engines? :-)

Have fun!
Eddy
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Old 28 May 2012, 05:52   #22
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Hi NSS

I am not convinced that comparing ribs to cars is a good one due to the difference in the number of cars sold and ribs sold.

Less choice means higher prices which is also why we have the monopolies commission ( now Competition Commission) to stop such practice.

Dave
To a degree, I agree with you Dave, but the principles are much the same. Sure there are more cars sold, but you cannot compare the complexity, equipment levels, etc of a modern car to a RIB. At the end of the day, a RIB is a GRP tub with an inflatable collar, an engine, a steering console, a couple of seats and a few mechanical/electronic devices. If it wasn't a largely 'cottage' industry where dozens (if not hundreds) of well-intentioned enthusiasts try to make a living by building what are in effect one-offs, then production costs would tumble. Prices are often justified by the fact that designing a new boat, and making a plug and moulds is so expensive that the manufacturer has to recoup that cost by charging a higher price than the build alone might justify. If more manufacturers collaborated at this stage, sharing the design and tooling costs at least, then that cost would be amortised over a larger production run. If they one manufacturer then wants to fit 'deckchair' seating and teak decking, and another wants to fit dive bottle stowages and hard-core shock-mitigating seats, that's up to them.

I just thought this thread was symptomatic of how the industry is in danger of committing suicide. It just makes no business sense whatsoever (IMHO anyway).
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Old 28 May 2012, 06:05   #23
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The marine industry needs, in my opinion, to wake up and smell the coffee - before it is too late!
Comparing cars and boats, especially RIBS, is not reasonable in terms of mass production. Boats have a much smaller demand in the general population. There are quite a number of mass produced RIBS around, some hailing from Europe, some from locations where wages are lower. They're generally not held in high regard on here - probably as this is a fairly "specialist" forum. One respected RIB maker on here is quickly and quietly banging out cookie cutter hard boats in Europe for one of the multinationals, but takes a different approach to RIBS.
Bear in mind too that boats from different manufacturers already have much commonality - engines, electronics, fittings etc. The actual hulls account for less than half the end cost. I suspect that labour accounts for the biggest proportion of hull build, especially with RIBS, where the collars are hand made. I know that boat builders here are very keen to streamline build techniques to reduce labour costs and prefer engines with simple (quick) install procedures. There is only so much that we can do about labour costs in Europe. In the Far East, where anything goes, there's more wriggle room. I don't want a GRP "tub" built in a bathroom ware factory in China.

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That, or we wait until the Chinese wipe the floor of course.
Careful - that's a slippery slope
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Old 28 May 2012, 08:34   #24
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Originally Posted by Eddy Johansen
People do not come to a Ford dealer and ask if they can make a Focus with slightly bigger doors or smaller windows. But they come to us and ask for a console that is 1/2 inch lower. Or wider. Or perhaps with a different grab handle. Or different console back inset. Not to speak of the tubes, I do not think we have made 2 tubes that are exactly the same the last 2 years.
You don't have to indulge them though, you choose to. That's fine, but don't make the mistake of thinking it's the only way!

Ribeye seem to be doing very well selling a limited range of mass produced RIBs, so it's definitely possible.
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Old 28 May 2012, 09:07   #25
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You don't have to indulge them though, you choose to. That's fine, but don't make the mistake of thinking it's the only way!

Ribeye seem to be doing very well selling a limited range of mass produced RIBs, so it's definitely possible.
Problem are, in car mass production is 10 000+ cars. In boats is not possible. Even Bayliner do not make 1 000 boat/year of their most sold model any more.

In 2006-2007 we tried produce a 4,7m with 50hp Honda 4 stroke and trailer sold for 9999 euros - loosing 1000 euros on each boat. We sold 20 units.

People do not want cheap boats, people want tailor made boats.
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Old 28 May 2012, 09:14   #26
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but you cannot compare the complexity, equipment levels, etc of a modern car to a RIB. At the end of the day, a RIB is a GRP tub with an inflatable collar, an engine, a steering console, a couple of seats and a few mechanical/electronic devices.

If more manufacturers collaborated at this stage, sharing the design and tooling costs at least, then that cost would be amortised over a larger production run.

Correct. A RIB is more complex to a car. A car is all standard. A RIB is different one to the other.

We cannot even imagine to think we can collaborate with other companies. Just see the accusations from Andy and Nico, I think is a english expression: much adoo about nothing. There is absolutely no base, but still other companies accuse of doing copy.
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Old 28 May 2012, 12:16   #27
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Actually NSS, we basically already use the same parts. Same material for tubes, same fibreglass, same resin, same acessories - we just shape them diferently and use different quantities of stuff. Just like they do with cars.

Problem is, in a small company like Hydrosport, we have each year 50 customers - ordering 50 different boats. If we ever are stupid enough to produce a boat for stock, we will not be able to sell it. Because it is always the wrong colour, and has the wrong console and the wrong seats.

People do not come to a Ford dealer and ask if they can make a Focus with slightly bigger doors or smaller windows. But they come to us and ask for a console that is 1/2 inch lower. Or wider. Or perhaps with a different grab handle. Or different console back inset. Not to speak of the tubes, I do not think we have made 2 tubes that are exactly the same the last 2 years.

As long as it is like this, then we should not be too worried about the chinese. Which is not the same thing as ignoring them, because if we start to ignore them, then it will not be long before they take over.

As for a 5m rib being more expensive than a BMW 3-series, the problem is always the engine. As long as a 90hp 4 stroke outboard costs more than a car (ex taxes) equipped with the same engine block, it will be difficult to do something about that. Perhaps with chinese engines? :-)

Have fun!
Eddy
Hi Eddy, don't get me wrong, my comments weren't directed at you personally, nor anyone else in particular in the industry. I just think there's a big shock looming around the corner for those who do not recognise the threat and plan for it.

A few points specific to your reply.

You are not using the same parts - "Same material for tubes, same fibreglass, same resin" - you are using the same raw materials, just as a car manufacturer will use the same steel, foam, glass, etc as another. The difference is, taking my example of the VAG models, they share the same platform plus many other parts. Therefore, the development, tooling and production costs are spread across many models badged under a variety of brands.

As for the bespoke tubes, console, etc, as John said, you don't have to indulge the customer. Ford offer a standard range of body colours or interior trim, much like all the mass producers of cars. If you want metallic paint, fatter alloy wheels, or leather seats, they charge you extra.

But it's much more than that. CSoares mentioned Bayliner, but how many other boat builders offer very similar products? My guess is that there are many many more boat manufacturers than there are car manufacturers, and they're all chasing what (in volume) is a far smaller market. That's a recipe for disaster, and it's hardly surprising that so many of the smaller ones go bust. Only so many people can afford, or are willing to spend Ferrari money.

As I see it, boat manufacturers need to do the same, and I take the point, as John again says, that Ribeye seem to be doing pretty well by doing so - though I'd contend that event their boats are hugely more expensive than they could/should be were the industry to learn to work totgether more.

For my own part, I fitted out my own Avon Rover 3.4 RIB and, as a consequence, it is a unique (or at least very unusual) configuration. That's not because I wasn't prepared to compromise on what I wanted, it was simply because I wasn't prepared to spend almost £11,000 on something I won't use more than 30 or 40 hours a year. That is the barrier that the industry has to overcome if it is to tempt more like me to 'stick a toe in the water'.

I agree that engine prices are a big factor, but again cannot understand why they are so expensive. My guess is that the manufacturers/dealers are making a killing, and they too will be riding for a fall when Chinese/Asian manufacturers overcome the stigma that many will attach to their products (and believe me they will overcome it, just as Nissan, Toyota, Mazda et all did before them).
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Old 28 May 2012, 12:34   #28
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Correct. A RIB is more complex to a car. A car is all standard. A RIB is different one to the other.
The only way a RIB can be more complex than a car is because you choose to make it so.

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We cannot even imagine to think we can collaborate with other companies.
Then the future of your business, and those who are similarly insular in their outlook, is in my opinion very bleak.
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Old 28 May 2012, 12:46   #29
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Problem are, in car mass production is 10 000+ cars. In boats is not possible. Even Bayliner do not make 1 000 boat/year of their most sold model any more.
As I said in my reply to Eddy, and so do dozens of other hard boat builders. If they collaborated, at least on hull design/moulding, then the numbers would be much greater and the boats would be cheaper to produce.

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In 2006-2007 we tried produce a 4,7m with 50hp Honda 4 stroke and trailer sold for 9999 euros - loosing 1000 euros on each boat. We sold 20 units.

People do not want cheap boats, people want tailor made boats.
Perhaps if you'd co-operated with someone who laready builds a similar size hull, or built one under licence instead of developing your own, the 20 you sold would have made you a profit.

How can you possibly say that people don't want cheap boats? That's like saying, "no I don't want to pay £15,000 for that car, I want to give you £20,000".

The perception is that boating is for the wealthy, so they'll happily pay over the odds to keep the dregs of society away from their exclusive club. That's the attitude that will be the ruin of the industry.
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Old 28 May 2012, 13:03   #30
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There are quite a number of mass produced RIBS around, some hailing from Europe, some from locations where wages are lower. They're generally not held in high regard on here - probably as this is a fairly "specialist" forum.
Well let's hope your 'specialist' manufacturers are still there to supply the demand in a few years time when the quality of those mass-produced has overtaken (and undercut) them.

Incidentally, where exactly does it say that this is a fairly specialist forum? It's billed as "The Number 1 RIB Website" but it seems that the opinions of 'leisure' users like myself are written off as being irrelevant. We may not spend the same amount of time on the water, or go out in all weathers, but we still pay launch fees, buy chandlery, take training courses, pay RNLI subscriptions, etc, helping to keep such costs down to a ridiculous level (rather than an astronomical one) for you hard-core types :-)
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Old 28 May 2012, 14:03   #31
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There will always be Specialists, making Special Things for Special People

I should have said that "this is a fairly (note use of fairly) specialist forum IMHO".
I do believe this to be the case as ribbing is a fairly specialist interest and the people who are interested enough to post on here are quite a small subset of the general ribbing population. Obviously there are varying levels of skill and ambition at play in the posting body but in general the newbies seem to find the place useful - I certainly did. Bear in mind that you were holding forth about the imminent demise of the European "cottage" RIB making scene and the rise of the Yellow Peril in a tsunami of vanilla leisure RIBs or some such scary scenario. I was making the point that there are plenty of cheap cookie cutter RIBs around as it is but there are still waiting lists at the specialised builders. Long may it last.

Thanks for keeping my costs down and calling me hard core

PS: If you have any money left over, the RIBnet sub is £20
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Old 28 May 2012, 14:35   #32
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There will always be Specialists, making Special Things for Special People

I should have said that "this is a fairly (note use of fairly) specialist forum IMHO".
I do believe this to be the case as ribbing is a fairly specialist interest and the people who are interested enough to post on here are quite a small subset of the general ribbing population. Obviously there are varying levels of skill and ambition at play in the posting body but in general the newbies seem to find the place useful - I certainly did. Bear in mind that you were holding forth about the imminent demise of the European "cottage" RIB making scene and the rise of the Yellow Peril in a tsunami of vanilla leisure RIBs or some such scary scenario. I was making the point that there are plenty of cheap cookie cutter RIBs around as it is but there are still waiting lists at the specialised builders. Long may it last.

Thanks for keeping my costs down and calling me hard core

PS: If you have any money left over, the RIBnet sub is £20
LOL! I'm going to have to find how to switch on the Smileys. I wanted to use the 'popcorn' but didn't know how to - obviously not enough skill or ambition ;-)

I've definitely found the forum useful (thanks to all), but perhaps the wider ribbing community would be more inclined to contribute if that small subset you mention were less dismissive of the 'stripey cushion' brigade. The forum has over 12,000 members, but how many of those are regular posters? Not many I'd guess.

Anyway, apologies if the 'cottage industry' comment offended anyone, but we used to make a lot of products in this country that we now buy from the far east. Whole industries have been wiped out. I just hope that the same "it'll never happen to us" attitude doesn't afflict the marine industry. I have a real affection for it, having served an apprenticeship and worked in the industry for 9 years when (much) younger, and hope it never happens.

However, if in 5 or 10 years time a Chinese (for arguments sake) company can produce a RIB of equal or better quality to those built here in the UK, but sell it for 20% less than our specialist builders can do, how many will pay the extra £5k or more for the privilege of buying British (or Irish of course)?
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Old 29 May 2012, 00:58   #33
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many car manufacturers share parts, engines and chassis, including many of the bigger companies, and have done so for many years. This helps keep down development and manufacturing costs.

There is no way a rib is more complex than a car. Most parts, engine, electronics etc are developed and manufactured by third parties and effectively 'bolted' on my by rib makers. Even most upholstery/seating is outsourced to people like outhills etc and i wouldn't put most boat seating in the same class as car seats. (rudimentary at best although i agree there are some specialist seat makers out there).

i agree the development of hulls for low volume sales is the expensive bit and probably the area where manufacturers could gain some benefit from collaboration, much like car companies sharing chassis development.

The next step would be having a real push on engine manufacturers to reduce prices. When you consider a 150hp probably costs in the region of £13-£15000, the price of a medium size saloon car, you've got to say they are probably 'overpriced' as they believe the market will accept it. Bringing out so called 'new' models every year is probably not really what most people in the market want. Low price, reliable and reasonable fuel consumption on engines are more important than churning out a new engine with different logos and minor mods every couple of years. Also there is probably to much choice in engine sizes that is also keeping up prices. Much like the car industry maybe it's time to concentrate on a few popular sized engines rather than the large number currently available.

When a 6m rib and engine is around the price of a ford mondeo then more people will be buying new ones rather than better value secondhand ones.
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Old 29 May 2012, 03:17   #34
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Wellhouse, I agree with some of what you say but you have to take into account that in the marine industry everything has to be made more robust than a car (saltwater corrosion, engines revving at top speed for longer etc) but as the car industry churns out hundreds of thousands they can buy (or have parts made) at a fraction of the price, especially when it comes to engines as these guys have got to get their development costs back with much smaller numbers of units, hence the price.
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Old 29 May 2012, 03:49   #35
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Wellhouse, I agree with some of what you say but you have to take into account that in the marine industry everything has to be made more robust than a car (saltwater corrosion, engines revving at top speed for longer etc)
That's quite a sweeping statement. Should I assume you have the design and development sign off criteria for both boats and cars to hand and have made an impartial and verifiable comparison?

Or, are you just stating an opinion without the benefit of fact?

Just curious
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Old 29 May 2012, 05:40   #36
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Okay...we are a boat builder and engine development/producer (as far as I am aware not many marine companies produce both?) so my comment is based on experience...
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Old 29 May 2012, 05:43   #37
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Okay...we are a boat builder and engine development/producer (as far as I am aware not many marine companies produce both?) so my comment is based on experience...
And what of cars?
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Old 29 May 2012, 11:09   #38
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Wellhouse, I agree with some of what you say but you have to take into account that in the marine industry everything has to be made more robust than a car (saltwater corrosion, engines revving at top speed for longer etc) but as the car industry churns out hundreds of thousands they can buy (or have parts made) at a fraction of the price, especially when it comes to engines as these guys have got to get their development costs back with much smaller numbers of units, hence the price.
Sorry, but any additional costs from marinising are surely offset by the fact that boats don't require expensive suspension, brake systems, air conditioning, air bags, laminated glazing, etc, etc, etc.

As for amortising development costs, the effect on the price diminishes as the quantities increase. My earlier point was that if a RIB builder spends, for arguments sake, £40,000 on the design and development of a new hull design, but only expects to sell 20 of those hulls, then the cost per hull (before actually building them) is £2,000 each. Whereas, if several RIB builders collaborated on that new hull design, and collectively built 80 RIBs based on that design, the cost per hull is only £500 each.

When you're talking about outboards, the numbers may not reach the levels of a particular car engine, but they are built/sold in sufficient numbers that the difference in amortised development cost is relatively insignificant.
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Old 05 June 2012, 17:15   #39
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I see the boat building industry is just as vicious in Europe as in South Africa.

Have been sitting back and enjoying the show.

Over the years we have seen it all : copied designs, stolen moulds, corporate hijackings, hulls exported to be copied, rubber cheques, court cases and partners that have the social skills of Somali pirates.

Yet we always bounce back because boating is what we do.

Best of luck Eddy, hope you find some good people too represent you.

When it comes to this forum you seem to be in better shape than me .... you build mono hulls.

I am considered an anarchist and deviant around here for building catamarans and then fitting some hydrofoils as well.

We are all trying our best to get a slice of an ever shrinking market.

As for the danger coming from the Far East .... all I can say is that they are masters of copying products. So if you have customers in China you will soon be handed your ass on a platter.

(How do you like my elaborate use of smilies ?)
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Old 06 June 2012, 02:52   #40
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Anyway, apologies if the 'cottage industry' comment offended anyone, but we used to make a lot of products in this country that we now buy from the far east. Whole industries have been wiped out. I just hope that the same "it'll never happen to us" attitude doesn't afflict the marine industry. I have a real affection for it, having served an apprenticeship and worked in the industry for 9 years when (much) younger, and hope it never happens.
Your idealistic view is great, and I'd love to buy a British made product at bargain basement prices, but unless you are prepared to work for £2 per hour I don't see that happening anytime soon. Nearly all boats are a 'specialist' market in my view. When you buy a car most people like to choose their options - it is the same with buying anew boat, the only difference is a boat will never come off a robotised production line where a computer controls the production.

Valiant are perhaps the closest you will get to automated production moulding of hulls using a vacuum system, but I don't see them ruling the roost in the rib market. The requirements of a boat are far wider than a mainstream car not just in options/specification but intended use, sea states, pax numbers etc. if you consider the number of different car models each manufacturer produces you will see that mass production of one hull type would not be the panacea you dream of. There really aren't enough parallels to keep using the car industry, but as far as I am aware the price of most manufactured products that go into a relatively small market is set by what the market can withstand, not how much it costs to produce. Economics controls this, not philanthropy.
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