High tech kill cords - the next generation?

[Presuming Ed]

Seatbelts have been in cars for ages. But now we have sensors reminding us to use them.

[jumpinjack]

I did a safety course recently, the instructor proposed that a 'sharp spike' attached to the centre of the steering wheel, on a car, pointed at the driver would have more of a safe driving effect to the driver than wearing a seat belt!

[chris.moody]

Originally Posted by Presuming Ed

Seatbelts have been in cars for ages. But now we have sensors reminding us to use them.

And people still find ways to get around the system and not wear a seatbelt.

Seatbelts and killcords are both low tech, but very effective safety devices The flaw is that the person sitting on the seat doesn't want to use the safety device, can't be bothered to use it, does not realise the risks, or for some reason feels it's macho to not use it. Other than education and peer pressure there is not really a viable solution.

Legislation will not work, just look at texting while driving. That's illegal and carries a fine and points, but every day I see people doing it.

Chris

[Poly]

Originally Posted by jumpinjack

I did a safety course recently, the instructor proposed that a 'sharp spike' attached to the centre of the steering wheel, on a car, pointed at the driver would have more of a safe driving effect to the driver than wearing a seat belt!

It would! There is a well documented effect of risk compensation. I'm not suggesting for a minute that kill cords (or seat belts) are not a very good idea but if you want to avoid the accident rather than mitigate the consequences they are both the wrong solution.

Interestingly I've had lots of discussions with people who refuse to acknowledge that they risk compensate (we ALL do).

[Presuming Ed]

Originally Posted by chris.moody

And people still find ways to get around the system and not wear a seatbelt.

Seatbelts and killcords are both low tech, but very effective safety devices The flaw is that the person sitting on the seat doesn't want to use the safety device, can't be bothered to use it, does not realise the risks, or for some reason feels it's macho to not use it. Other than education and peer pressure there is not really a viable solution.

Yes, but you have to make a positive decision not to use a seatbelt. Either you put up with incessant peeping,or you buckle it and sit on top of it. You don't just forget it.

I agree that legislation about kill cord use would achieve nothing. And electronic replacements for kill cords create as many problems as they solve. But some way of reminding people to use it more than just a sticker would be a good idea - as with seatbelts.

How about you can't start the engine until you've removed the kill cord and plugged it back in again? I.e. from all off to engine start would be a two stage process. Like the way that you can't start an engine in gear. Or that you have to switch the electrics on with the kill cord out, and then plug it in?

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Presuming Ed

Yes, but you have to make a positive decision not to use a seatbelt. Either you put up with incessant peeping,or you buckle it and sit on top of it. You don't just forget it. I have (easily) disabled the "Bonger" on my Disco4 as it drove me mad when I was reversing. However I ALWAYS use my seat belt as it feels wrong if I don't, apart from when I'm reversing the trailer.

I agree that legislation about kill cord use would achieve nothing. And electronic replacements for kill cords create as many problems as they solve. But some way of reminding people to use it more than just a sticker would be a good idea - as with seatbelts.

How about you can't start the engine until you've removed the kill cord and plugged it back in again? I.e. from all off to engine start would be a two stage process. Like the way that you can't start an engine in gear. Or that you have to switch the electrics on with the kill cord out, and then plug it in?

And pray, how would that make people wear the killcord, all that does is make starting the engine un-necessarily complex, ever picked up divers amongst rocks with the wind behind you? Until you remove the need for human interaction, all you are doing is polishing a turd

[Poly]

Presuming Ed - the solution is in this thread much further back. it requires a little change in habit for helmsmen (and could become 'best practice teaching for RYA' if they wanted) - with NO new equipment, NO fancy / expensive technology, NOTHING more likely to fail than current practice.

KEEP YOUR KILL CORD ATTACHED TO YOU - NEVER LEAVE IT JUST DANGLING AT THE CONTROLS.

[indaba1991]

They need them on motorbikes - I fell of in Scotland once - but the bike got back up on its feet and ran on as a riderless horse for hundreds of yards with me running after it. My mate behind chased it for a while not quite sure what to do. He managed to get a hand on the handle bars - but having discovered the free life the bike immediately committed suicide in a rather deep ravine. Riding pillion back to London was a sobering experience.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Poly

Presuming Ed - the solution is in this thread much further back. it requires a little change in habit for helmsmen (and could become 'best practice teaching for RYA' if they wanted) - with NO new equipment, NO fancy / expensive technology, NOTHING more likely to fail than current practice.

KEEP YOUR KILL CORD ATTACHED TO YOU - NEVER LEAVE IT JUST DANGLING AT THE CONTROLS.

The single thing that has helped me, is that I no longer just let the KC dangle when not in use. I clip it around the steering wheel, no need for fancy systems, stickers etc. The most sophisticated system known to man is already installed on every boat, it just needs using

[Presuming Ed]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

The single thing that has helped me, is that I no longer just let the KC dangle when not in use. I clip it around the steering wheel, no need for fancy systems, stickers etc. The most sophisticated system known to man is already installed on every boat, it just needs using

I just drape it when swapping helms, but I like the idea of clipping it.

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Presuming Ed

I just drape it when swapping helms, but I like the idea of clipping it.

Yorkshire Logic wins out!
.......!!!Very Rare occurrence

[Starovich]

Mine is connected to my LJ permanently, as is my wife's, and we have a spare on the 2nd seat, not close enough to just "use" you need to unclip it before it will reach.

[willk]

Originally Posted by teamplonker

IDEA!
Inexpensive, unintrusive, non eletronic, no possible human error factor.
What about a spring loaded throttle, I'm sure I have read about them somewhere on here.

You have. Have you thought about how you'd helm a boat with one fitted?

Can't take your hand off the wheel
Can't take your hand off the throttle

Every time you hit a wave, your arm is going to either open or close the throttle a bit or a lot, as you can't maintain a "feather contact" with it. If you let go, the boat nosedives and your crew fall over. If you push it hard, you stuff or catch air and your crew fall over.

Oh, and you can't push a button on your plotter or VHF, can't turn on a switch, can't scratch your nose, wipe spray from your eyes....unless you stop the boat.

Or let go of the wheel! Hey - we can fix that - we'll put contacts on the wheel so the engine stops if you let go of the wheel!

[willk]

Originally Posted by Presuming Ed

I just drape it when swapping helms, but I like the idea of clipping it.

Both excellent ideas. I did the clipping to the wheel for a while but found it tricky around launches and recoveries and pontoons. Maybe just me, I'm a bit clumsy.

I then fitted some velcro to the console BESIDE the wheel and put some on the killcord. When unclipped, one end was stuck to the console between the helm and the throttles - stood out a mile.

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Maximus

Yorkshire Logic wins out!
.......!!!Very Rare occurrence

I thought you'd be out on the boat blasting up & down the Zummerzet levels

[Crusher]

Ok, I've kept totally out of this thread but can no longer resist throwing in my 2p worth.....

As the similarity has been drawn to seat belts why is that the legislation for compulsory wearing of seatbelt has had a huge effect on seatbelt wearing and now has a very high percentage of compliance, and yet everyone seems to be convinced legislation changes will have no effect on wearing of kill cords?
I believe a few weekends with some harbour masters handing out fines would very quickly get the word out and make a step change improvement to the number of people wearing them.
And finally what harm would it do to make it law? Even if it only makes 1 more person wear it and prevents 1 more tragedy like this happening.
I simply don't see what we have to lose by bringing the law in?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Crusher

As the similarity has been drawn to seat belts why is that the legislation for compulsory wearing of seatbelt has had a huge effect on seatbelt wearing and now has a very high percentage of compliance, and yet everyone seems to be convinced legislation changes will have no effect on wearing of kill cords?

do you think there would be such widespread compliance with seat belt laws if there were very few police officers in the UK and they were only found in "car parks"?
do you believe that there would be such compliance with road traffic laws in general if (1) vehicles were not readily identifiable with registration marks (2) registered keepers of vehicles were not required to identify the driver (3) there wasn't a system of licensing in place for drivers.

If you are in any doubt those things will all cost YOU money - and yet YOU already wear a kill cord. Meanwhile people who refuse or are nonchalant about wearing one - will probably avoid the places most likely to get into trouble - and avoid all the compliance costs!

In spite of this whilst there is 'widespread' compliance with seat belts there are still thousands of people prosecuted each year for not wearing seat belts. Often with the 'excuse' that they forgot...

...and still 1 person dies every day not wearing a seatbelt... ...compared to typically 1 or 2 in kill cord accidents each year. I would rather the government invested their resources (my taxes) in issues that will have an impact.

I believe a few weekends with some harbour masters handing out fines would very quickly get the word out

Harbour masters don't hand out fines. Fines are issued by the courts. In a small number of special cases fixed penalties can be offered as alternatives to fines - but even harbour speeding penalties aren't normally eligible for this (perhaps due to rules of evidence, perhaps due to the issues above on identifying people, perhaps because HM's aren't really intended as a "police force" and mostly would prefer to manage through cooperation than sanctions).

make a step change improvement to the number of people wearing them.

ask anyone living in a 30mph village on a fast road if it has a long term effect on speeding when the police have a purge - complacency soon comes back.

And finally what harm would it do to make it law?

Well the points above probably cover that - but do you fancy legal costs if you think you've done nothing wrong? But in case you are in any doubt there is a whole other thread on the topic: http://www.rib.net/forum/f8/compulso...ink-55022.html

Even if it only makes 1 more person wear it and prevents 1 more tragedy like this happening.

how would you quantify that? do you need a law to make you use a kill cord? did you read the report? was there anything in there which made you think there was consistent intentional kill cord negligence in this case - rather than a simple brief oversight? how would a law have prevented the oversight to use it on this particular occasion?

[Pikey Dave]

Originally Posted by Crusher

Ok, I've kept totally out of this thread but can no longer resist throwing in my 2p worth.....

As the similarity has been drawn to seat belts why is that the legislation for compulsory wearing of seatbelt has had a huge effect on seatbelt wearing and now has a very high percentage of compliance, and yet everyone seems to be convinced legislation changes will have no effect on wearing of kill cords?
I believe a few weekends with some harbour masters handing out fines would very quickly get the word out and make a step change improvement to the number of people wearing them.
And finally what harm would it do to make it law? Even if it only makes 1 more person wear it and prevents 1 more tragedy like this happening.
I simply don't see what we have to lose by bringing the law in?

And how would that have prevented the "Milly" incident????

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

And how would that have prevented the "Milly" incident????

the one person who's mind was change by it being a law may have been the husband or wife in this tragic incident.

[Dirk Diggler]

Originally Posted by Crusher

I believe a few weekends with some harbour masters handing out fines would very quickly get the word out and make a step change improvement to the number of people wearing them.

Been thinking about this, and have come to the conclusion that it would be mostly ribbers that would be fined, as us sportsboat users have decks and topsides, and you can't actually see if we're wearing one!