Flares: should we give up carrying them?

[Lundy Osprey]

I was just trying to give people food for thought, because we allways have, does not mean it is the best way.

"LED headlamp prototypes
In the first quarter of 2005, three major automotive-lighting companies announced LED-based headlamps that would be ready for adoption into production automobiles in the next few years: Stanley Electric, Visteon (Van Buren Township, MI), and Hella KGaA Hueck & Co. (Lippstadt, Germany).
Stanley announced that it would start producing white LED-based headlamps in 2007, although it has not released much detail about the design or performance of the headlamps. It stated that its production capacity would be sufficient to supply 5000 vehicles per month in 2007. These are expected to be high-end luxury cars. By 2010 Stanley expects its capacity to reach 600,000 vehicles per month."

Taken from the web link below.

http://www.laserfocusworld.com/artic...html?id=241158

My point being that the technology may be upon us sooner than we think.

[Grasshopper]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

He did take the audience by surprise and it was obvious that a number of people in the room could not envisage this happening.

My personal opinion is that these would have been the same people who could not envisage unmanned lighthouses, or the end of Decca, or the introduction of Decca, or vessels ceasing to emloy full time radio opeartaor to keep a listening watch on Channel 16, or in fact vesels actually keeping a listening watch on channel 16.

If the CEO of the MCA thinks that there are more modern, safer, more effective and more environmentally sound alternatives to the distress flare then I am all for it.

Just becasuese we have grown up with something does not stop it becoming obselete.

Did I miss something hear was he offering a viable alternative.

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Lundy Osprey

I was just trying to give people food for thought, because we allways have, does not mean it is the best way.

"LED headlamp prototypes
In the first quarter of 2005, three major automotive-lighting companies announced LED-based headlamps that would be ready for adoption into production automobiles in the next few years: Stanley Electric, Visteon (Van Buren Township, MI), and Hella KGaA Hueck & Co. (Lippstadt, Germany).
Stanley announced that it would start producing white LED-based headlamps in 2007, although it has not released much detail about the design or performance of the headlamps. It stated that its production capacity would be sufficient to supply 5000 vehicles per month in 2007. These are expected to be high-end luxury cars. By 2010 Stanley expects its capacity to reach 600,000 vehicles per month."

Taken from the web link below.

http://www.laserfocusworld.com/artic...html?id=241158

My point being that the technology may be upon us sooner than we think.

I agree they have come a long way but the problem is they are very directional and that is NOT a good thing when you want everyone to see you.

Also they still need batteries or some electircal supply and they have an annoying habit of failing - especially in a salt water environment!!!

[wavelength]

Then it sounds like you need to get someone more sensible to write the risk assessment!

Who made this ruling, and what were the particular hazards that they identified with out of date flares?

well as it is a HM Coastguard station it would seem logical that the guy who is mentioned at the start of this thread might just have sommat to do with it perhaps

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by SeaSkills

If anyone wants an organised flare demonstration, get in touch with the RNLI, it's one of the functions of their Sea Safety division (for the Forth or the Oban area, get in touch with me). For all the above mentioned Health & Safety reasons - whether or not you agree with them - we cannot allow you to bring along TEPs to fire off. We will supply in date flares for the demo

So what allows the RNLI to set of flares in a non emergency situation when I cant ? If I arrange something as a charity & do it thats OK then ( assuming I ignore H&S/ risk assesment/ liability insurance ) ?????????

As I said flares dont actually know the date they are set off so just coz it says on the side they have ' expired' they dont switch off over the stroke of midnight ! Too much paperwork & not enough common sense going on ........

[K&S]

Originally Posted by Blackroady

So what allows the RNLI to set of flares in a non emergency situation when I cant ?

I have had to report seeing flares twice now. Both times they were set off buy the Navy in training excercises. Seems to be ok for them too....

If flares were replaced by a suitable allternative i'd be more than happy to change. Especially if they were safer, enviromentally friendly, and more effective ..... hmm i'm pretty sure we have such items allready ?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by codprawn

LED torches as bright as a car headlight? I have yet to see one. They may seem bright but would they light up such a large area? I think not.

You presumably haven't been looking to spend £100+ on mountain bike lights in the last few months then.

The big advantage of a flare is it should always work - no batteries to run out - no electronics or aerials to get damaged etc etc.

so no flare has ever failed to trigger then?

I also agree people should be allowed to set them off - in broad daqylight in a deserted quarry well inland it shouldn't be a problem and gives people essential practice.

ehhh ... i think you might have answered this one yourself ....

A red parachute flare can be seen for miles. Even silly members of the Public will recognise a flare and know what it means.

[SeaSkills]

Originally Posted by Blackroady

So what allows the RNLI to set of flares in a non emergency situation when I cant ?

It's probably something to do with the 2-day training course for RNLI flare demonstrators, the several pages of risk assessment needed for every demonstration, and the many phone calls and emails before each event to advise the coastguard, police, fire service, air traffic control, local lifeboat etc etc (and calling them again immediately before and after the event to remind them).

No distress flares are used, just hand-held smokes, and white pinpoints and parachutes.

Nonetheless, the wind-up call to the coastguard afterwards always includes feedback on how many 999 calls came in

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by SeaSkills

It's probably something to do with the 2-day training course for RNLI flare demonstrators, the several pages of risk assessment needed for every demonstration, and the many phone calls and emails before each event to advise the coastguard, police, fire service, air traffic control, local lifeboat etc etc (and calling them again immediately before and after the event to remind them).

What does the 2 day course cover? Surely it can't just be about demonstrating flares - it's hardly rocket science!

Any chance of getting hold of a copy of that risk assessment? Parachute flares need some careful thought, but firing hand held flares and smokes is about as hazardous as making a cup of tea.

[K&S]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

Any chance of getting hold of a copy of that risk assessment? Parachute flares need some careful thought, but firing hand held flares and smokes is about as hazardous as making a cup of tea.

Me thinks you need a new kettle

[wavelength]

but firing hand held flares and smokes is about as hazardous as making a cup of tea.

thats what I used to think, well sommat like that, but an accident in the last couple of years saw an instructor have the base part of a hand held flare fire itself back at him and thru him did it not, resulting in large amounts of blood being needed in transfusions. New hand held flares having been redesigned as a result.

[K&S]

I'm sure most of you have seen it before but it did impress me the first time i saw it.
When a hand held flare is held burning underwater for a while and comes out still burning, pretty cool till you need to put it out in a hurry!

[Bern Hanreck]

and to some extent all the chat about practice flares is a bit of a diversion.
We have sort of " been here before "........see......

http://www.ribworld.com/forum/showth...ghlight=Flares

I actually contacted a major British flare manufacturer to see if there might be any interest in producing " live practice flares " eg green parachute flares which only burnt for a short time , so leisure boaters could actually practice firing them off under controlled conditions . We had an interesting exchange of emails but they felt that there was simply not enough demand for such a specialized product.

( Now who do we know with an interest in both boating and pyrotechnics who might think differently ? )

Their attitude was that the British Leisure Boating Industry was unregulated so it was simply personal choice whether one bothered about carrying pyrotechnic flares or not . International shipping is regulated by SOLAS and flares are compulsory , so as far as they were concerned , flares would be around for the foreseeable future !

I did actually ask them if I could quote them directly , but they declined

[m chappelow]

i dont see why with modern chemicals that the expirery dates cannot be made longer to at least 5 years rather than around 3 ,and i dont see why hand helds cannot be set off on bonfire night in inland areas with care ,i know with the para ones they could still be burning and land on a house roof possibly setting fire to the plastic gutters ect ,

[jyasaki]

Not sure if it's the chemicals in question, or the packaging.

I suspect that the 3 year expiration has more to do with possible water ingress than breakdown or long term reaction of the chemicals.

That's just a guess, though.

jky

[m chappelow]

Originally Posted by jyasaki

Not sure if it's the chemicals in question, or the packaging.

I suspect that the 3 year expiration has more to do with possible water ingress than breakdown or long term reaction of the chemicals.

That's just a guess, though.

jky

your probley right there ,we have set flares off some at least 20 years out of date and they still worked fine ,though a few burned a bit pinkish in colour rather than red or maroon,but they were kept in sealed containers and not spent most of there life rolling about in someones bilge .regards mart .

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by wavelength

thats what I used to think, well sommat like that, but an accident in the last couple of years saw an instructor have the base part of a hand held flare fire itself back at him and thru him did it not, resulting in large amounts of blood being needed in transfusions. New hand held flares having been redesigned as a result.

It was a faulty new flare. I bet the ones from an old batch would have been much safer!!!

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Polwart

You presumably haven't been looking to spend £100+ on mountain bike lights in the last few months then.

so no flare has ever failed to trigger then?

ehhh ... i think you might have answered this one yourself ....

They may be very bright but they have a fairly narrow beam - just look at the size of them.

I have a pair of KC Daylighters - the old 150W sealed beam units. They are still the brightest light I have ever seen on a car. They give a wideangle beam and a hell of a range. The heat they give off is scary. If you turn one on it's side it will illuminate the whole of an electricity pylon - top to bottom - from about 500yds away.

As to setting off flares in old quarries you fire them horizontally silly - pref at an old car or whatever is dumped there...................

[Poly]

Originally Posted by codprawn

They may be very bright but they have a fairly narrow beam - just look at the size of them.

I have a pair of KC Daylighters - the old 150W sealed beam units. They are still the brightest light I have ever seen on a car. They give a wideangle beam and a hell of a range. The heat they give off is scary. If you turn one on it's side it will illuminate the whole of an electricity pylon - top to bottom - from about 500yds away.

you aren't comparing a normal car headlamp though...

the beam angle is most dependent on the optics not the light source - if you want a wide beam you can have a wide beam, if you want a narrow beam you can have a narrow beam. The benefit is the much reduced power requirement, you need a hell of a lot of AA's to run your KC Daylighters for any time! You could feasibly produce a very bright handheld electronic flare that would be like a red or white flare - it wouldn't be as brights as a flare though - but would last a lot longer than 1 minute and could be made to flash to attract attention.

[Channel Ribs]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Yes. But I think the "trigger" will be when MCA/MOD refuse to take TEP, and the manufacturer becomes obliged to take them back when buying new ones. That will put up the price of Flares, whilst at the same time electronic location aids will be coming down.

As was pointed out to me on another forum, this is very true and my statement about alternatives is not so sound after all.

PLBs are coming down, at around 150 quid they are comparable to a decent flare pack!