E10 New petrol

[lakelandterrier]

I've just looked at Suzuki website and they state up to 10% ethanol is allowable.

With an internal fuel tank which is the lesser of the 2 evils over winter....keep it fairly full to minimise space for condensation, but more risk of water separation or try to empty the tank with more condensation risk but less risk of fuel separation?

Is just adding a good stabiliser the answer?

[match]

Thanks to everyone who has replied I usually add a petrol treatment to my tank over winter it looks like it would be easier to drain my inbuilt tank then going forward [emoji106]

[Jon Tallis]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

How To Neutralize Ethanol In Gasoline – Fuel Stabilizers and Ethanol Removal

Snake oil.
It's not possible to remove ethanol from a gasoline blend as this claims to do....unless you have your own refinery. As for "neutralising" ethanol.....lord only knows what that actually means....

[TmMorris]

Originally Posted by match

Thanks to everyone who has replied I usually add a petrol treatment to my tank over winter it looks like it would be easier to drain my inbuilt tank then going forward [emoji106]

I honestly believe that this is what everyone should be doing. It's good practice anyway as ethanol or not, a tank is going to have some crap in it at the end of a season. I've never seen the point in keeping fuel and starting each season running the risk of bad fuel or crud getting sucked into expensive engines and now with ethanol I can't see the point.

[jeffstevens763@g]

Originally Posted by Jon Tallis

Snake oil.
It's not possible to remove ethanol from a gasoline blend as this claims to do....unless you have your own refinery. As for "neutralising" ethanol.....lord only knows what that actually means....

Jon I don’t Know but Lucas are very old established company it’s a big claim if it’s not possible. People are adding water to the fuel and draining off I spoke to a guy today with a 35 year old mini van doing exactly that.

[Jon Tallis]

I agree Lucas is a brand I usually trust too but believe me it is not possible to "remove" ethanol from Gasoline other than by re-distilling it. If they're claiming (as they are) to remove the ethanol, where exactly are they removing it to?

[willk]

Originally Posted by Jon Tallis

If they're claiming (as they are) to remove the ethanol, where exactly are they removing it to?

Further to a recent personal experience, might I suggest "Welsh Gin"?

[TmMorris]

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

Jon I don’t Know but Lucas are very old established company it’s a big claim if it’s not possible. People are adding water to the fuel and draining off I spoke to a guy today with a 35 year old mini van doing exactly that.

I can't see his logic though? Even if he is getting his chemistry right and adding enough water and then waiting Lind enough for the chemical reaction (he's not going to be heating it to speed things up!!), the end product would be 10% less and low octane. He'll have a metal tank, metal lines and into an SU to an old A series that'll burn any old rubbish petrol.

All when he can just run e10 or pay for premium and for it to still be cheaper than what he is doing!

Plus, I don't think Lucas is the original British company any more but just a marketing brand that third party products, usually from China or the US are sold under?

[HDAV]

Lucas oil is a us brand Yamaha also state E10 is safe in 2003 on outboards iirc .

I have been using stabiliser the last few years and keeping my 70l tank brimmed (tricky if you have a 300l in board tank I guess.

Using super on the last trip of the year may be the best option.

[Limecc]

Originally Posted by Jon Tallis

I agree Lucas is a brand I usually trust too but believe me it is not possible to "remove" ethanol from Gasoline other than by re-distilling it. If they're claiming (as they are) to remove the ethanol, where exactly are they removing it to?

Good comment

[TmMorris]

People really do need to be very careful about how they think about ethanol and how they manage its presence.

There is a vast amount of lying, fraud, scaremongering so as to upsell completely worthless 'solutions' to problems that don't exist.

The uncomfortable truth is that snake oil vendors and tooth sucking mechanics are having a field day at the expense of us lot with either our boats or our old cars.

You cannot add a chemical that removes ethanol from gasoline.

You cannot remove ethanol yourself by adding water. That in itself is proper crazy stuff.

Phase separation requires the addition of more water than either ethanol or gasoline can hydrscopically absorb. This isn't atmospheric water from tank wall condensation etc but physically pouring water in. It then, at standard temps, takes around 3 months for the chemical reaction to take place.

Ethanol is higher octane than gasoline due to its much higher heat of vapourisation so if you were to actually remove it then you'd be running an engine on a lower octane than it has probably been set up for and give yourself all those wear and tear issues.

So what are the actual issues with ethanol?

It's hydroscopic so will absorb h20 into its molecular structure. Is this bad? Well, water doesn't like going through a carb needle so if you have a bit of water from tank sweating in your tank and it gets sucked into your fuel line then there is a good chance you're going to have an annoying problem. If your fuel however contains ethanol then this ethanol soaks up that pollutant water and it passes through and is burnt off. The hydroscopic nature of ethanol is actually useful to people with internal fuel tanks that sit there breathing and sweating through daily temperature cycles.

How many people are pouring water into their fuel tanks and then leaving it for three months plus to allow a phase separated emulsion to form?

With external tanks, just don't store fuel in them for seasons at a time. Use the fuel, close off breathers as you should and at the end of the season, empty the tank.

For internal tanks, it is a little tricker but if laying up the boat over winter then clean out your fuel tank as part of winterising and if needs be, pouring a gallon or two of garden centre zero ethanol petrol to run through the lines and engine system and to just have a float in the tank and seal the tank off from the atmosphere.

Corrosion. That's the risky bit after snake oil vendors and dodgy mechanics. Ethanol will corrode certain plastics and some metals. If you're running an old system, mostly from before the 90s generally, then for your own peace of mind you want to be checking that the plastics in contact with your fuel are resistant. But we did this back when E5 came in so we should know and we also do t leave fuel sitting in the lines or system due to varnishing and drop out risks. Even so, I would take the view that if you don't know what your fuelling system is made of then run ethanol free most of the time or upgrade your fuel line.

E10 is going to cause issues but 99% of them will be down to it showing up existing bad practices and skimping on maintenance. Users who leave fuel in their lines and engines, who keep fuel to go off, who don't clean out their tanks.

[GuyC]

Originally Posted by TmMorris

For internal tanks, it is a little tricker but if laying up the boat over winter then clean out your fuel tank as part of winterising and if needs be, pouring a gallon or two of garden centre zero ethanol petrol to run through the lines and engine system and to just have a float in the tank and seal the tank off from the atmosphere.

https://aspenfuel.co.uk/

This stuff has been mentioned before but I thought it might be useful.

[Steve509926]

Sounds like good info from Tim.

[TmMorris]

Originally Posted by GuyC

https://aspenfuel.co.uk/

This stuff has been mentioned before but I thought it might be useful.

These fuels are now appearing in conventional garden machinery outlets.

I've used it for a while for strimmers, trimmers, chainsaws, leaf blowers. I don't use it all year round as there is no need but from September on that's what goes in so that any fuel left in them until Spring is fine and they start up and run immediately.

It's £4/litre on average so I wouldn't run engines on it all season but having all the garden stuff start straight away in Spring makes it worthwhile.

I think that to use it in outboards you'd have to have a very particular reason that was defined by unusual usage.

The obvious one that springs to mind is the auxiliary engine. That sort of outboard tends to have an internal tank and can sit all year not being used but when you do need to use it you absolutely want the fuel in it to be fresch and pure.

I have a nice, mid 80s 4hp Yam. If that were used as a mounted aux then I'd be using garden petrol in it. Instead, it gets used a few times a year so E5 premium is absolutely fine and I've replaced the plastic hose and filter from tank to carb just to be sure. At the end of the season I'll be taking the carb off to drain and give a spray with MEK as always so as to stop any varnishing. I'll then empty the internal tank but because it is metal I'll sling some garden fuel in just to have the floor and tap covered.

My 15hp old Mariner (Yam) will get similar. Run dry with the fuel line connected but open at the tank end so it is also fully drained. Carb off to empty and spray.

The contents of the external tank, the spare cans as well as all the garden cans will then be poured into the car and used.

During the season I'll aim for non ethanol premium fuel but running e10 doesn't concern me as I won't be pouring a cup of tea into the fuel tank and leaving it for three months on a low light to chemically react. Any moisture drawn in via the breather in use will just be absorbed by any ethanol and burnt through the engine.

[Jon Tallis]

Originally Posted by TmMorris

People really do need to be very careful about how they think about ethanol and how they manage its presence.



There is a vast amount of lying, fraud, scaremongering so as to upsell completely worthless 'solutions' to problems that don't exist.



The uncomfortable truth is that snake oil vendors and tooth sucking mechanics are having a field day at the expense of us lot with either our boats or our old cars.



You cannot add a chemical that removes ethanol from gasoline.



You cannot remove ethanol yourself by adding water. That in itself is proper crazy stuff.



Phase separation requires the addition of more water than either ethanol or gasoline can hydrscopically absorb. This isn't atmospheric water from tank wall condensation etc but physically pouring water in. It then, at standard temps, takes around 3 months for the chemical reaction to take place.



Ethanol is higher octane than gasoline due to its much higher heat of vapourisation so if you were to actually remove it then you'd be running an engine on a lower octane than it has probably been set up for and give yourself all those wear and tear issues.



So what are the actual issues with ethanol?



It's hydroscopic so will absorb h20 into its molecular structure. Is this bad? Well, water doesn't like going through a carb needle so if you have a bit of water from tank sweating in your tank and it gets sucked into your fuel line then there is a good chance you're going to have an annoying problem. If your fuel however contains ethanol then this ethanol soaks up that pollutant water and it passes through and is burnt off. The hydroscopic nature of ethanol is actually useful to people with internal fuel tanks that sit there breathing and sweating through daily temperature cycles.



How many people are pouring water into their fuel tanks and then leaving it for three months plus to allow a phase separated emulsion to form?



With external tanks, just don't store fuel in them for seasons at a time. Use the fuel, close off breathers as you should and at the end of the season, empty the tank.



For internal tanks, it is a little tricker but if laying up the boat over winter then clean out your fuel tank as part of winterising and if needs be, pouring a gallon or two of garden centre zero ethanol petrol to run through the lines and engine system and to just have a float in the tank and seal the tank off from the atmosphere.



Corrosion. That's the risky bit after snake oil vendors and dodgy mechanics. Ethanol will corrode certain plastics and some metals. If you're running an old system, mostly from before the 90s generally, then for your own peace of mind you want to be checking that the plastics in contact with your fuel are resistant. But we did this back when E5 came in so we should know and we also do t leave fuel sitting in the lines or system due to varnishing and drop out risks. Even so, I would take the view that if you don't know what your fuelling system is made of then run ethanol free most of the time or upgrade your fuel line.



E10 is going to cause issues but 99% of them will be down to it showing up existing bad practices and skimping on maintenance. Users who leave fuel in their lines and engines, who keep fuel to go off, who don't clean out their tanks.

[emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]

[jeffstevens763@g]

For the boat I only use ultimate fuel from BP and drain off at the end of a trip put it into the wife’s mini I use aspen in the aux and leave it in it has a 5 year shelf life that’s me