E10 Fuel

RickW · 04 March 2020, 07:45

Given the announcement today this may become more and more regular (and maybe standard) petrol wondering how countries which have already moved to this standard have seen it affecting marine use in outboards

From what I can see the best prevention is to use your fuel every 60 days or so to prevent phase separation

Now once I get the new rib I guess I will be super keen so no worries there but does anyone know how phase separation works? I am guessing new/old dilution doesn’t matter as once it has happened you can not get the two phases back together again

Anyone on the continent care to comment if it affects them in normal use?

Engine wise seems like all engines can cope with the fuel its more the phase separation which is an issue

gotchiguy · 04 March 2020, 09:43

Certainly in Europe where E10 has been very common for a while on road forecourts this does not seem to have spread to pumps on the water.

If you search back through the forums there have been a lot of issues with E10 fuel in outboards over the years - I would certainly not be confident that the only issue is phase separation!

Perhaps things have improved on the latest outboards however I would be very reluctant to run any ethanol through an outboard if I could avoid it. Often the super unleaded pump is ethanol free on a forecourt and long may this remain the case.

jeffstevens763@g · 04 March 2020, 09:48

ive pull my hair out for two seasons with my engine not ticking over it came down to water globules in the fuel pipe etc all blown out now and ok. i'm using fuel set know it breaks down water so it burns along with a fuel seperator. i also have gone on to use BP super unleaded which has no ethanol in it. there is some debate on fuel life span if in a sealed full container up to a year, if not 6-12 weeks although some on here have it in there tanks all winter with no problems.
i got my water from somewhere so i'm not taking any chances.aspen fuel lasts 5 years but its damn expensive

jeffstevens763@g · 04 March 2020, 09:49

ive pulled my hair out for two seasons with my engine not ticking over it came down to water globules in the fuel pipes etc all blown out now and ok. i'm using fuel set now it breaks down water so it burns along with a fuel seperator. i also have gone on to use BP super unleaded which has no ethanol in it. there is some debate on fuel life span if in a sealed full container up to a year, if not 6-12 weeks although some on here have it in their tanks all winter with no problems.
i got my water from somewhere so i'm not taking any chances.aspen fuel lasts 5 years but its damn expensive

RickW · 04 March 2020, 09:51

Small clarification - obviously if phase separation happens then really nasty things can happen to your engine

I hadn’t thought about marine fuel being ethanol free - might even make up for some of the additional costs per litre!

jeffstevens763@g · 04 March 2020, 10:07

ardoran marine told me they have a lot of problems with water in fuel.
central marine services have seen it at the pump albeit in diesel.
both of these i dealt with over my problem. i had to go down the route of total clean out in both tanks easy for me with the SIB would be a pain with fixed underfloor tanks although you can get them cleaned out and the fuel polished by pro's.
it spoiled my boating for two seasons because they couldnt find the problem cost me about a grand in the end

sorry about the double post it asked me to repeat in 15 seconds

TmMorris · 27 June 2021, 14:02

Ive been po seeing the risks of e10 fuel in the marine environment.

The build up of water in tanks is clearly going to be an issue but I'm more thinking about this from the perspective of the corrosive nature of ethanol and the large number of older engines that will have complete fuel and carb systems unsuitable for withstanding these risks?

From what I can see, is owners of older outboards will need to replace much of the fuel system to be on the safe side but there are also going to be metallic issues in the carbs as there is a good chance some of those components will react with ethanol?

Fuel leaks are not exactly ideal at the best of times but while out on the water?!

I'm assuming that the default solution for the time being is to ensure that non e10 fuel is used but is there yet a wider understanding of the fuel leak dangers?

Oldman2 · 27 June 2021, 14:43

I thought 5 star or premium petrol was still going to be available for those who had comparability problems with e10?

gpsguru · 27 June 2021, 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldman2

I thought 5 star or premium petrol was still going to be available for those who had comparability problems with e10?

Yes, super unleaded will still be E5.

I use my boat all year, but the instability of E10 concerns me for the winter months when the weather is less predictable,. I will probably use E10 in spring, summer, and autumn. In the winter I will go back to E5 (super unleaded).

jokee · 28 June 2021, 16:49

Phase separation isn't really the problem when ethanol forms any percentage (5 or 10) of petrol. The big issue is that ethanol negates the natural separation coming from oil (the petrol) always floats on water. You always get water - which usually comes when warm air in the free space in the petrol tank comes in contact with the colder top surface of the tank and the resulting "condensation" drops to the bottom of a non ethanol petrol tank. But by having ethanol as a part of the petrol the water does not drop to the bottom as it mixes with the ethanol and will not separate - as gin (ethanol) and tonic (water) mix. To my knowledge there is no way (filters or otherwise) of getting this mixed water out of the ethanol/fuel. The only solution that I can think of is to stop the condensing of the water from the air in the tank - not easily done other than by eliminating the air space by keeping your tank full.
Or, better still, ban the use of ethanol in marine petrol powered engines.

jokee · 28 June 2021, 16:55

Having thought further on this water mixed with the ethanol does cause phase separation as the ethanol water mix will eventually drop to the tank bottom and result in your fuel having a far lower octane than engine manufactures specify

jeffstevens763@g · 28 June 2021, 18:34

https://liquideng.com/collections/fuel-set-collection

I’m using this stuff now

Limecc · 28 June 2021, 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffstevens763@g

https://liquideng.com/collections/fuel-set-collection

I’m using this stuff now

I started using this stuff in every tank courtesy of Amazon.
Marine formulation has four times the cleaner and twice as much corrosion preventer compared to the usual Sta-bil stabilizer.

TmMorris · 28 June 2021, 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokee

Having thought further on this water mixed with the ethanol does cause phase separation as the ethanol water mix will eventually drop to the tank bottom and result in your fuel having a far lower octane than engine manufactures specify

Yup. The tonic will mix with the gin but you'll still get a petrol float.

The ethanol will also draw in more water if the tank can breath.

I'm not sure that this is too much of an issue if using an external tank as the water is much easier to remove and probably not going to form.

In my mind I was thinking what the ethanol, as a corrosive agent, will try and do to things like carbs as well as pipelines.

I can't see too much of an issue for people who look after their kit and follow basic practice. Plus, such people are likely to activiely avoid e10 anyway but I guess I've made the assumption, maybe erroneously, that there will be people who aren't careful with their fuel choices and leave fuel in their lines etc, risking fuel issues at sea?

gpsguru · 02 July 2021, 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by jokee

Having thought further on this water mixed with the ethanol does cause phase separation as the ethanol water mix will eventually drop to the tank bottom and result in your fuel having a far lower octane than engine manufactures specify

The water separator filter should sort out the water content in the fuel before it gets to the engine.

bobdyer77 · 08 August 2021, 20:25

Just got back on the water after an eight year absence, now the owner of a 2006 50HP Tohatsu and blissfully unaware of E10 until notices went up on Sainsbury's forecourt notifying imminent changeover, has anyone had any advice direct from any maindealer re effect on older engines (other than the water absorption issues)

TmMorris · 08 August 2021, 20:46

Ethanol has been in various fuels around the world for some time now so the chances are that outboards have been being made with suitable plastics for some time but the best thing to do would be to ask Evinrude directly if their 2006 engines were, I would think.

In the US it started being added in 1990 so you might be fine.

Going forward, for many of us it's probably wise to not keep any fuel over winter and to try and use non ethanol fuel when possible.

bobdyer77 · 08 August 2021, 21:12

Chances are my 2006 Tohatsu will be ok on E10 as its been running E5 since it was built but will the additional 5% ethanol have an adverse effect on seals etc? Have emailed Tohatsu but tbh doubtful will get a sensible reply and if they do advise it's ok are they going to pick up the repair bill when things go curly? Apparently premium fuel will remain with E5 content so looks like the sensible thing to do is accept the increased running costs rather than risk damage.

paddlers · 08 August 2021, 21:21

We're up in bonny Scotland next week with my carb'd 2006 Honda 90 four stroke on Kintyre. Spoken to Highland fuels who aren't going E10 until September 1st so ok there. Long term buy premium to preserve fuel lines & seals .

Limecc · 09 August 2021, 07:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobdyer77

Apparently premium fuel will remain with E5 content so looks like the sensible thing to do is accept the increased running costs rather than risk damage.

For those not aware, Super Unleaded/Premium doesn't have any Ethanol in it at all (depending on where in the country it's sold) but there's no E0 designation so still labelled E5.