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Old 23 March 2004, 15:02   #41
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Eh?!?

As I understand it, a particular boat design will pass the relevant tests and stuff for it to get an RCD/CE mark for the design. Whether you code it or not is entirely up to you. I mean, what would happen if Jono or Ian decided to sell their 'coded' Prosports for some reason, but for leisure use? They could remove the expensive coding kit, and it would be the same as a 'leisure' one. The boat design would surely still pass the RCD/CE mark regs?

Should Coding replace the CE mark? It should be an additional thing over and above the CE mark to allow you to use your boat commercially. Otherwise you would have to decide on the day that you buy it whether it would be commercial or leisure!!

D...
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Old 23 March 2004, 19:54   #42
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Re: Eh?!?

Quote:
Originally posted by DGR


Should Coding replace the CE mark? It should be an additional thing over and above the CE mark to allow you to use your boat commercially. Otherwise you would have to decide on the day that you buy it whether it would be commercial or leisure!!

D...
NO!

Unless the boat fits in an exclusion as below it HAS to be CE/RCD approved and coding is a completely seperate thing as I understand it!

Paragraph 2 defines the types of recreational craft covered.
These boats are defined, not by their type or means of propulsion, but:
∑ by their hull length of 2.5 to 24 m, and in particular
∑ by their intended use for sports and leisure purposes.
It is specified that chartered, i.e. hired, recreational craft are covered by the Directive, as are
recreational craft used for recreational boating training. In both cases, the activity is not a
commercial passenger transport activity but one for sports or leisure purposes.


and here are all the listed exclusions.

(a) craft intended solely for racing, including rowing racing boats and training rowing
boats labelled as such by the manufacturer;

(b) canoes and kayaks, gondolas and pedalos;

(c) sailing surfboards;

(d) powered surfboards, personal watercraft and other similar powered craft;

(e) Original, and individual replicas of, historical craft designed before 1950, built
predominantly with the original materials and labelled as such by the manufacturer;

(f) experimental craft, provided that they are not subsequently placed on the Community
market;

(g) craft built for own use, provided that they are not subsequently placed on the
Community market during a period of five years;

(h) craft specifically intended to be crewed and to carry passengers for commercial
purposes, without prejudice to paragraph 2, in particular those defined in Directive
82/716/EEC of 4 October 1982 laying down technical requirements for inland waterway
vessels (2), regardless of the number of passengers;
the exclusion in (h) concerns craft specifically intended to be crewed and to carry passengers
for commercial purposes. This means that recreational craft, which are crewed and are used
for sports and/or leisure purposes, are not excluded.

(i) submersibles;

(j) air cushion vehicles;

(k) hydrofoils.


There is another god knows how many pages of barely intelligible eurospeak but I think the above is enough for now! (well done Kitten!)
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When a boat looks that good who needs tubes!!!
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Old 24 March 2004, 06:48   #43
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Re: Re: Eh?!?

DGR

Correct, if me or Ian decided to withdraw coding on our boats, Pro Sport have confirmed they will make sure the boats are CE Marked.

Quote:
Originally posted by Cookee

(h) craft specifically intended to be crewed and to carry passengers for commercial
purposes,
Like the Pro Sports me and Ian own then!
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Old 24 March 2004, 08:49   #44
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Ah well .........

Quote:
Originally posted by Jono Garton
Marked.



Like the Pro Sports me and Ian own then!
Maybe or maybe not .........

the exclusion in (h) concerns craft specifically intended to be crewed and to carry passengers
for commercial purposes. This means that recreational craft, which are crewed and are used
for sports and/or leisure purposes, are not excluded.

You tell me 'cause I'm really not sure!
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Old 24 March 2004, 15:00   #45
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Ah... sorted... I think...

It sounds like we are getting confused by the regs (again) - and we are all correct!!

Using Jono and Ian as examples, their ProSports are designed and tested to get a CE/RCD mark.

'Cos the chaps are planning to use them commercially, they aren't bothered if they have the CE mark (not leisure use) and 'cos they meet coding regs - which is a different thing anyway.

However, the design still meets the CE/RCD regs - whatever it is used for.

I think that's right..........

D...
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Old 25 March 2004, 07:00   #46
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You Have.........

Hit the nail on the head
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Old 25 March 2004, 08:28   #47
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Jono

I still don't understand why these new boats are not CE marked.

If they meet all the requirements, then why not just have the little plate stuck on the transom and be done with it?

John
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Old 25 March 2004, 08:55   #48
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rcd

re Johns last
its because the boats are fitted out to meet MCA yellow code requirements, that the builders feel there is no point in sticking a CE plate on the back when the boat has been purchased and fitted out for commercial use, i could buy a Prosport CE marked rib and then get it coded for commercial use by the MCA and then it would carry the CE plate and a commercial operators plate valid for one year until it passes the next inspection. its just the way they have chosen to buy their boats, all of it is correct from all the rules and regs everyone has been posting its just going round the houses, PROSPORT could not sell illegal ribs and they have two versions 1 RCD CE marked and one MCA coded
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Old 25 March 2004, 09:39   #49
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I understand that. I'm not suggesting that there is anything wrong or illegal with these boats not being CE marked when they are built.

However in a couple of years time when these boats are up for sale they will either need to be sold to another commercial operation or be CE marked.

So there are potential benefits in having a CE mark. As far as I can see there is no benefit from not having a CE mark. So why not have it from the start?

There may not actually be a good reason of course!

John
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Old 25 March 2004, 11:02   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Kennett
I

However in a couple of years time when these boats are up for sale they will either need to be sold to another commercial operation or be CE marked.
John
as Jono said earlier PROSPORT will CE plate them if they sell to a private buyer. most go down the route of buying a leisure rib and then getting it MCA coded for commercial use, they chose the commercial spec i guess as it would make getting the license easier i don't know, but if you really want to open a can of worms
what about the EU directive that you cant use leisure craft for the purpose of rescue ie all the non RNLI lifeboats and the beach rescue boats at the moment a working group is tackling this issue and hopefully a recomendation will be made soon but how is that goint to effect clubs and what will the requirements be for clubs to
continue providing safety cover or lifesaving and how strict is that code going to be , or will we only be able to use Rescue boat coded craft for this purpose?
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Old 25 March 2004, 11:30   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Kennett
Jono

I still don't understand why these new boats are not CE marked.

If they meet all the requirements, then why not just have the little plate stuck on the transom and be done with it?

John

I agree entirely and this is the correct way to operate in my opinion.


Duncan
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Old 25 March 2004, 23:17   #52
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Jono,
Just curious, Why do you want to own a boat That you can't (legaly) train people in, hire out as a skippered boat,charter, or go for fun trips around the bay in with your mates?
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Old 26 March 2004, 07:18   #53
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???...

GO ON THEN..... EXPLAIN...... WHY CANT I DO THIS LEGALLY IN MY £80'000'S WORTH OF NEW "MCA CODED" BOATS ?????
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Old 26 March 2004, 07:48   #54
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Because, and I quote,


Paragraph 2 defines the types of recreational craft covered.
These boats are defined, not by their type or means of propulsion, but:
∑ by their hull length of 2.5 to 24 m, and in particular
∑ by their intended use for sports and leisure purposes.


It is specified that chartered, i.e. hired, recreational craft are covered by the Directive, as are
recreational craft used for recreational boating training. In both cases, the activity is not a
commercial passenger transport activity but one for sports or leisure purposes.
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Old 26 March 2004, 08:12   #55
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RCD

From the GUIDANCE NOTES FOR INSPECTION OF RYA TRAINING CENTRES
1 OPERATING AREA
1A The actual operating area should be noted,and the usable size of inland waters recorded.
Powerboats used for training at Recognised Teaching Establishments on the sea, outside categoryC OR D must stay within 3 miles of a nominated departure point or must be certificated under an MCA Code of Practice.(MCA YELLOW CODE)

Powerboats used for the advanced courses from harbours without
Catergory Cor D waters must be certificated to category 3 of the code of practice for the Safety of Small Commercial Motor Vessels
(MCA YELLOW CODE)

Where harbours do have category C or D waters the powerboats must stay within 3 miles of the limit of the C or D waters and within 3 miles from land(SOLENT)

Powerboats used from more than one departure point must be certificated to the appropriate category of the of the MCA code of practice for the safety of small commercial motor vessels(MCAYELLOW CODE)

Excemption from the above Code is given to sites listed on the RYA CERTIFICATE of RECOGNITION WHICH HAVE RECEIVED AN ANNUAL INSPECTION. so Jono has done absolutley the right thing in having his boats coded as he wishes to operate more than 3 miles from his NPD HOPE THIS HELPS IN ENDING THIS SILLY ARGUEMENT
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Old 26 March 2004, 08:48   #56
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Re: RCD

Quote:
Originally posted by tim griffin
Jono has done absolutley the right thing in having his boats coded as he wishes to operate more than 3 miles from his NPD HOPE THIS HELPS IN ENDING THIS SILLY ARGUEMENT
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Thanks tim.

You see kitty we do infact know what we are talking about, we train for a living and i dont spend the 80k of the companies money unless i'm sure about the product i'm getting. Suggest you actually read the previous posts before replying
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Old 27 March 2004, 20:00   #57
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Thanks Tim,

sorry Jojo, but I am very stupid, please could you show me the bit in Tims post that says you don't need a CE mark on a boat when first made available in the EU even if it is to yellow code.

Thankyou wery wery much.
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Old 28 March 2004, 08:46   #58
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Re: Pro Sport & CE - in simple terms

Quote:
Originally posted by Jono Garton
coding by far superseeds a ce mark.
I think your getting yourself a bit confused on this one. Having read through this thread, (which is in danger of becoming another "console change) I'm starting to think that there is loads of advice from people who don't actually understand what CE marking is all about.

Having been to quite a few BMIF seminars, and been involved in paying out several thousand pounds to a "notified body to obtain Ce certification, I'm starting to think that you lot haven't got a clue what your on about.

You seem to think that CE marking is simply fixing a plate on the rear of your craft, when infact the "mark" is to show that the craft meets the RCD ruling.

For for a vessel to meet the rules, it not only has to be built to a certain standard and it's construction methods approved, it also has to be tested for bouyancy and stability, handling under max power etc. It also has to have a construction file detailing batch no's of all glass and resins used, temp & humidity of workshop taken twice daily, etc etc. This file has to be held by the manufacturer for something like 7 years. Every part used in the boat has to CE approved, and be fitted according to CE ruling, wiring diagrams have to be supplied together with operators manual for the boat and all it's equipment. The list of requirements go on and on.

Now the bit I find puzzling is this, If Jason has done all this, and I'm not suggesting for 1 second that he hasn't, why wouldn't he stick the plate on the transom?

Surely the simple answer to all this is for Jason to tell everybody which notified body he used, and his certificate number, and then hey presto, all doubt's removed, even though it still doesn't answer Cookee's question, or does it!!!!
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Old 28 March 2004, 10:41   #59
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DD, is it the case then, that if a boat were to be built knowing it is to MCA coded, that the logging of batch no's, adhering to the build schedule etc. could be omitted, it could then be coded but it would never be able to be CE marked?
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Old 28 March 2004, 17:10   #60
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Although I don't know much about MCA coding, it would certainly seem that way.

People tend to make the mistake of assuming that the RCD procedure was brought in on safety reasons, but it was because "jonnie foreigner" had a history of refusing entry to boats that were in competition to their own products.

The Froggies were probably the worst offenders of this, so it was decided by the suits in Brussels that we needed a common set of rules for us all to adhere to. Hence the Recreational Craft Directive and CE marking. This mark is not unique to boats, have a look at your hairdyer, toaster etc, they will all have one as well.

What suprises me is the number of RYA instructors that have studied it in such detail, when all they really needed to know is that their boat has the sticker on it!!!

I MCA'd a Sunseeker once, and it was a lot easier than if I'd tried to CE it.
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