Boat delivery - Page 3

hard1 · 11 November 2005, 13:01

Guys, sorry if this is all a bit off post but i suspect I'm not the only one out there confused by the towing legislation. Jono, I think you're absolutely right, there's many people towing illegally knowingly and dangerously and there's a whole heap more towing illegally unknowingly because of the confusing regs. According to the chart posted here, if a trailer is not used to carry goods or for hire or reward (the NO answer at the top), you go straight to "No Tacho Required"

Our exhib trailer will not be used for either of those purposes. There's also no way the towing weight scenario comes into it either. According to this chart, no tach is required for our particular use, period. However, the weight issue is different. I am keen to discover what I will need to tow this MF legally (having got the tacho issue out of the way) so we come back to the MTW and MAM issues.

This could also affect all those who regularly tow their boats any distance with cars so it's a worthwhile conversation. One question though...would you heel whilst towing?

Phew....

Jono · 11 November 2005, 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by hard1

. According to the chart posted here, if a trailer is not used to carry goods or for hire or reward (the NO answer at the top), you go straight to "No Tacho Required"

Phew....

That chart is out dated..sorry.. (See FAQ4)..you do need a Tacho...IF it's in connection with your business and it exceed the 3,500Kg rule (See FAQ2)..The hire or reward refers to you. Ie if you are using a trailer in connection with any business or use for which you receive financial compensation (wages, Salary Etc)

With a "110" LR, depending on model, the maximum gross weight trailer you can tow, in connection with business is only 450 -550 KG.. without a Tacho.
I'll see if I can find the figures for your Trooper.

Tim M · 11 November 2005, 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete7

Hmm, lots of work

Tims new project

.

Note quite Pete. I'm going to stick some sort of outboard-age on the back.....

Jono · 11 November 2005, 13:31

Mmm...couldn't find the MAM of the trooper but its curb weight is about the same as LR 110 at 2000Kg give or take... so allowing for a payload of 750 Kg (I'm guessing..don't shoot!) your max gross weight for a trailer before tacho rules cut in is 750KG.... you'd need a tacho dude...

Jono · 11 November 2005, 13:33

The good news is they ain't that dear.. £300-500 ish..

Then you need a copy of the driving time rules...

Tim M · 11 November 2005, 14:03

http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/tachographs/tachographs.htm

Edit: I just phoned the NTTA and they say that this information IS up to date.

Jono · 11 November 2005, 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim M

The NTTA odviously hasn't updated it's information in th last five years then. This is their webpage relating to the matter: http://www.ntta.co.uk/law/tachographs/tachographs.htm

Edit: I just phoned the NTTA and they say that this information IS up to date.

Oh yes? Nice get out clause..

"The DETR and the NTTA stress that their comments are for advice only and that it is for the courts to interpret the law."

So how did they explain the Court ruling in 2003 and posted on the VOSA site?

"FAQ.4) Are trailers which have no capacity to carry goods (ie. mobile plant) exempt from the rules?

No. A High Court Judgement in July 2003 ruled that a vehicle towing a trailer (either goods carrying or non-goods carrying) is subject to the EC drivers' hours and tachograph rules. Exceptions to this rule are where the "vehicle combination" does not exceed a maximum permissible weight of 3.5t (see FAQ.2 for details on how to work out the weight criteria) or where the operation is exempt (see Section 22 of GV262)." ..

Perhaps you might like to ask them to review their advice in light of this and see what they say?

<edit> Scratch that.. I've just phoned the (very pleasant) chap in Leamington and he's going to double check with VOSA, as he wasn't aware of the Court decision and then ammend his chart as appropriate....

Hugh Jardon · 11 November 2005, 14:23

love it .....so the more we look the more confused we are by the rulings and statements posted by the authorities, and even by what they say, what a shambles as usual.

a question ......the towing capacity of many 4x4s is 3.5t and i have always believed that i can tow upto 3.5 t behind the vehicle, meaning i would have a gross weight of vehicle and trailer of close to 5.5t in total.

so

if i was towing for business i would need a tacho.? as the limit is 3.5t combined vehicle and trailer........seems very odd as most 4x4 plus caravans combinations exceed 3.5t, i know mine does. strange how they pitch the limit lower for business use

Jono · 11 November 2005, 14:24

Further thought for your exhibition trailer... If the VEHICLE was fitted for exhibition you don't need a tacho... but it doesn't say "Trailer" . If challenged could you get away with that as a defence as the Court ruling refers to operation (I.e. Exhibiting) but the text refers to Vehicle? All the Jargon refers to Vehicle AND trailer implying that a trailer is not a vehicle so it would be interesting to see ... anyone want to take it to Court?

I'm gonna see what VOSA come back with....

Jono · 11 November 2005, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Jardon

love it .....so the more we look the more confused we are by the rulings and statements posted by the authorities, and even by what they say, what a shambles as usual.

a question ......the towing capacity of many 4x4s is 3.5t and i have always believed that i can tow upto 3.5 t behind the vehicle, meaning i would have a gross weight of vehicle and trailer of close to 5.5t in total.

so

if i was towing for business i would need a tacho.? as the limit is 3.5t combined vehicle and trailer........seems very odd as most 4x4 plus caravans combinations exceed 3.5t, i know mine does. strange how they pitch the limit lower for business use

Good innit? How about the fact that I can drive my 11,500 Kg Motorhome (when it's finished) on a car license and it's just subject to an ordinary MOT not plateing???

jwalker · 11 November 2005, 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono

... as he wasn't aware of the Court decision and then ammend his chart as appropriate....

He needs to amend it in a few places.

Jono · 11 November 2005, 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwalker

He needs to amend it in a few places.

Eagle Eyes....

'course we could all become Circus people and dispense with all these petty little rules and regulations....Now, how do I register as a one man Circus?

Hugh Jardon · 11 November 2005, 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono

Now, how do I register as a one man Circus?

i know a man who is a one man circus who might be able to point you in the right direction!!!!

Nauti Buoy · 11 November 2005, 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Jardon

i know a man who is a one man circus who might be able to point you in the right direction!!!!

hard1 · 11 November 2005, 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono

Good innit? How about the fact that I can drive my 11,500 Kg Motorhome (when it's finished) on a car license and it's just subject to an ordinary MOT not plateing???

Yeah good innit. Exactly which part of all this shite did you reckon was "clear"?

hard1 · 11 November 2005, 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono

Mmm...couldn't find the MAM of the trooper but its curb weight is about the same as LR 110 at 2000Kg give or take... so allowing for a payload of 750 Kg (I'm guessing..don't shoot!) your max gross weight for a trailer before tacho rules cut in is 750KG.... you'd need a tacho dude...

OK OK. As I understand it (and I don't really) the max all up vehicle + trailer weight before tacho rules is a combined figure of 3,500 kgs. The recomendation for max safe trailer towing weight in proportion to vehicles weight is "80-85% of the combined axle weights" (weight on the 2 axles of the towing vehicle), so if the Trooper is (as you correctly say, around 2,000kgs similar to a LR 110) then the max towing weight of the trailer is 85% of the vehicle weight which is: 1,600 kgs. Combined together gives us 3,600 kgs which is 100 kgs above the tach requirement. Now, interestingly, the max trailer weight of 85% of vehicle weight is only a recommendation, not mandatory, so I'm not even going to bother being precise with that. All I have to ensure is that the trailer and vehicle weigh a total of 3,500 kgs, but regretfully it's more. My only hope to avoid a tach (and an operators licence by the way) therefore is to hope that the trailer and use are exempt. To this end, I have written to Mr Phillip Brown the Traffic Commissioner for this area asking for a clarification.

Now, anyone know anything about deplating a classic Bedford Fire Engine? This is not a joke...

jwalker · 11 November 2005, 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono

Good innit? How about the fact that I can drive my 11,500 Kg Motorhome (when it's finished) on a car license and it's just subject to an ordinary MOT not plateing???

Yeh? And how fast are you allowed to drive it. Legally that is, not by her who shouts at you.

Jono · 11 November 2005, 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by hard1

(and an operators licence by the way) therefore is to hope that the trailer and use are exempt. To this end, I have written to Mr Phillip Brown the Traffic Commissioner for this area asking for a clarification.

Now, anyone know anything about deplating a classic Bedford Fire Engine? This is not a joke...

This is the bit to pin your hopes on...

"Drivers are also exempt from the EC drivers’ hours and tachograph rules when
engaged in the following transport operations in the UK"

and ..

• Vehicles used as shops at local markets or for door-to-door selling or used for
mobile banking, exchange or saving transactions, for worship, for the lending
of books, records or cassettes, for cultural events or exhibitions, and specially
fitted for such uses.

You could argue, by virtue of the fact that the heading refers to "transport operations" that this means Trailers too despite the exemption class shown here clearly saying "Vehicles". You could, however come unstuck in two ways. 1) They judge that "Vehicles" does not include "Trailers" or that that the use of the word "or" implies Cultural events or "cultural" exhibitions, in the same way the word "or between records and cassettes means lending records or "lending" cassettes.. It's one for the Courts too... Good luck

What do you need to "downplate" an old Fire Pump for?

Jono · 11 November 2005, 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwalker

Yeh? And how fast are you allowed to drive it. Legally that is, not by her who shouts at you.

That don't matter a whole lot to me considering the gearing....

Transfer box and drive line all fixed and cab refurbed... it's a slow process.... now for the back body

jwalker · 11 November 2005, 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono

That don't matter a whole lot to me considering the gearing....

I wasn't being cheeky, I was asking. Are you limited to 40?

You could give me more info too re the 11500kg. If I had a camper which weighed 4500kg and I stuck a 3500kg trailer on the back, could I get around the 7500kg limit of me normal licence?