Batten down the hatches - Page 3

Carl · 15 November 2009, 15:29

i dont think it portrays your responsibilites very well when you do have punters with you if you risk yourself and your equipment like that. i doubt the coastguard would of advised you to go out in that weather

Poly · 15 November 2009, 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl

i dont think it portrays your responsibilites very well when you do have punters with you if you risk yourself and your equipment like that. i doubt the coastguard would of advised you to go out in that weather

I'm not sure I understand your argument. Tim didn't take passengers out and didn't suggest he would in those conditions.

Fortunately Tim's big enough to make his own decisions and doesn't need the CG's permission to go out. Realistically the CG would probably advise you never to leave the harbour above a F6, unless you "had to". Of course if you have to, and have never experienced anything like it before then thats not useful - so as a potential passenger on Tim's boat I am reassured that he has tested it, and his capabilities, in conditions worse than he would take me out in!

If I were a director of tim's company my only real concern would be if he broke the boat and we lost money because we couldn't fulfill a charter.

You might want to read his post again "gusting 40 knots" and then check your Beaufort scale - 'cos 40 knots aint Force 11.

Phil · 15 November 2009, 16:37

is that the aroma of the Ribnet polis

not been heard of for a while

tonymac · 15 November 2009, 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSP

Yeah it is, to use the slip it's £10 to launch, £10 to retrieve and to use the lock it's £6 each way. http://www.liverpoolmarina.com/marina-tariff

There is a slipway at the end of John Lennon Airport but it's for the Sailing clubs use only. That's why I travel 40 miles to fleetwood instead. Plus with my dad living in the dock I get free meals and an extra pare of hands to help launch.
That's until I can get myself a good 4X4 and launch of the beach.

WOW!

I know that place. Walked along there many a time. Saw the Marine Bar and Grill and it looked too grand for me!! (Actually the prices are not too bad for food)

I spent some time looking at the money bobbing on the water and never did I think it was that expensive to put a boat down that lovely big wide ramp there - and then pay again to bring it up!!

Flabbergasted! They obviously don;'t want the riff raff like me to use it!

JSP · 15 November 2009, 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonymac

WOW!

I know that place. Walked along there many a time. Saw the Marine Bar and Grill and it looked too grand for me!! (Actually the prices are not too bad for food)

I spent some time looking at the money bobbing on the water and never did I think it was that expensive to put a boat down that lovely big wide ramp there - and then pay again to bring it up!!

Flabbergasted! They obviously don;'t want the riff raff like me to use it!

I've been told they are suffering for it. As are a few marina's around here who thought they would have no end of business due to the change on windermere. But allot seem to have sold there boat after finding out how much the charges where or would be.

Never mind though Tony, atleast us riff raff can leave it on the trailer

codprawn · 16 November 2009, 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl

how does everyone else cope ?

Most people have hard boats with plenty of mooring cleats - even then 2 have sunk in the last year.

Carl · 16 November 2009, 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polwart

I'm not sure I understand your argument. Tim didn't take passengers out and didn't suggest he would in those conditions.

Fortunately Tim's big enough to make his own decisions and doesn't need the CG's permission to go out. Realistically the CG would probably advise you never to leave the harbour above a F6, unless you "had to". Of course if you have to, and have never experienced anything like it before then thats not useful - so as a potential passenger on Tim's boat I am reassured that he has tested it, and his capabilities, in conditions worse than he would take me out in!

If I were a director of tim's company my only real concern would be if he broke the boat and we lost money because we couldn't fulfill a charter.

You might want to read his post again "gusting 40 knots" and then check your Beaufort scale - 'cos 40 knots aint Force 11.

you want to go and check what the weather was doing saturday morning at 11.00am the wind was gusting to over 60knts,so go check your scale now........still think its sensible to go out in that ?

Zubenelgenubi · 16 November 2009, 08:26

Wind speeds of 60 kn does not necessarily imply that it is a force 11.

The Beaufort scale is based on sea conditions, the sea conditions are to be observed & based on the description of the sea state as designated in the Beaufort scale, the scale is thus interpreted to ascertain a Beaufort force.

The scale is not intended to be used in the reverse way, ie ascertain the wind speed & then assign a Beaufort number to it.

For example, you can gave a wind speed of 35 kn but if you do not have
"Sea heaps up. Some foam from breaking waves is blown into streaks along wind direction. Moderate amounts of airborne spray" & probable wave heights of 5.5 - 7.5 m then it is not a force 8. It is a wind sepped of 35kn, in a sheltered area without significant "fetch", it is possible to have 35 kn wind & well above but not the associated sea conditions, thus it is inaccurate to describe the conditions using the Beaufort scale.

Carl · 16 November 2009, 08:32

best email that to the met office then

Ian Austin · 16 November 2009, 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl

you want to go and check what the weather was doing saturday morning at 11.00am the wind was gusting to over 60knts,so go check your scale now........still think its sensible to go out in that ?

Ohhhh yes for certain,

I was out in Plymouth sound about that time and i can say it was breezy

, it was realy whipping up the sea and there was a lot of sea spray and the rain, driving into it at 20+ knotts it was stinging my eyes a lot, (must remember to take my goggles next time), also it must have been breezy as it was the first time that i have ever felt the wind get under the boat and hold it up,

Zubenelgenubi · 16 November 2009, 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl

best email that to the met office then

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/weather/...fortscale.html

I think they already know, it is highlighted with reference to probable & probable maximum wave height.

*1.These values refer to well-developed wind waves of the open sea.

A reference to a particular "Force" assumes that the interpreter of the information knows the above information.
Reference to a particular force where there is not a condition of "well-developed wind waves of the open sea" should be interpreted to mean "winds associated with a particular Force"

Carl · 16 November 2009, 10:57

probably,possibly right then. next time it blows a 60knt wind in the solent i shall tell everyone dont panic its only a force 5 because of the wave height

fancy the red jet boys cancelling services because of a force 5

Zubenelgenubi · 16 November 2009, 12:22

60 kn winds can affect vessels (particularly high sided ones) from a berthing / unberthing / keeping a vessel alongside.On many high sided vessels 15kn of beam wind can be equated to an effect on the vessel the same as that of 1 kn of current & so on. These winds can also cause adverse sea effects eg short steep seas particularly in a wind against tide scenario.
Is is possible to have 60 kn winds associated with a F11 & sea conditions associated with those of a F5. It would be completely inaccurate to say that every time there are winds gusting to 60kn that there is a "violent storm".
If you were in a river / fjord etc which is flanked by high ground on either side where there can be localised winds for example of 64kn plus you couldnt sat it was F12 as you wouldnt have the sea conditions, you would have winds associated with Beaufort F12.

codprawn · 16 November 2009, 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zubenelgenubi

60 kn winds can affect vessels (particularly high sided ones) from a berthing / unberthing / keeping a vessel alongside.On many high sided vessels 15kn of beam wind can be equated to an effect on the vessel the same as that of 1 kn of current & so on. These winds can also cause adverse sea effects eg short steep seas particularly in a wind against tide scenario.
Is is possible to have 60 kn winds associated with a F11 & sea conditions associated with those of a F5. It would be completely inaccurate to say that every time there are winds gusting to 60kn that there is a "violent storm".
If you were in a river / fjord etc which is flanked by high ground on either side where there can be localised winds for example of 64kn plus you couldnt sat it was F12 as you wouldnt have the sea conditions, you would have winds associated with Beaufort F12.

You are quite right. In the Burry Estuary it is quite possible to have 30' waves with hardly any wind. It is also possible to have 70kts of wind with only 6' waves.

All it needs is a storm in the Atlantic with the big rollers sweeping in!!!

alystra · 16 November 2009, 15:18

Beaufort lived in the days of sail. His scale was devised to help sailing ships choose the right amount of canvas for the conditions. A way of estimating the wind strength in open ocean was to look at the sea state, which gives an indication of the Beaufort scale. Thus the frigate captain knew which sails to leave set and which to hand. The Beaufort scale is not linear, being based on the pressure of wind on sails.

For a sailing boat wind strength (and direction) is what matters, whether in open ocean or sheltered waters. For motor boats, it's sea state that's more important than wind strength. So setting off in a forecast F11 in sheltered waters is not particularly foolhardy. Turning round when the sea state becomes too much is a seamanlike thing to do.

Of course, in such strong winds you have much less time to react should you have a breakdown, for instance. In (smallish) RIBs there's also the tendency to fly if going fast into a gale of wind, so you do have to be careful.

I can't imagine a professional skipper not working out a passage plan and doing a risk assessment before setting off - more than likely in this instance just a mental exercise. Whatever the qualification level, the gulf between professional charter skippers and amateur boaters, in terms of boat handling and sea experience, is huge. It will take the average amateur eight years or more to accumulate the sea time and experience a professional accumulates at the end of his first year in the job.

Poly · 16 November 2009, 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl

you want to go and check what the weather was doing saturday morning at 11.00am the wind was gusting to over 60knts,so go check your scale now...

Given that Ribnobburs are more inclined to exagerating the wind speed upwards than downwards, especially if they've made the wise decision to curtain a trip, I was more inclined to believe the lower number... but as you told me to check I did...

http://www.isleofwightweather.co.uk/ which appears to be in mph and based in Newport -- suggests max all day was a gust of 51 mph, and that 10-12am was gusting < 40 mph.

http://www.weather-file.com/hurst2/archive.htm in Lymington -- gusts typically < 50 knots in the morning (and < 40 before 10am).

http://www.bramblemet.co.uk/archive/...14Nov2009.html is broadly in agreement with that... as do their sister sites at southampton and chichester.

So, not withstanding Zubenelgunibi's comments, it sounds like it certainly wasn't a force 11... probably better described as something along the lines of F6 gusting 8, increasing to F8 gusting 9 occassionally 10 later.

Quote:

..still think its sensible to go out in that ?

I wasn't there, I didn't see the conditions, I wasn't familiar with the forecast etc - so its not "my call" if it was right to go out - it was Tim's. But I don't see that the call was any different because at completely differnet times the boat is used to carry passengers. Given that he came back in one piece with no reported damage to the boat or crew it sounds like, empirically, his trip was safe.

Carl · 17 November 2009, 08:01

check again on chi met and camber met,which is closer to pompey,bored of this now,we seem to be going round and round in circles.

Carl · 17 November 2009, 08:06

alystra,some charter skippers are still pretty young,so have some catching up with many people on this site

Observer · 17 November 2009, 09:04

It seems reasonable for someone in the business of chartering RIBs to test the limits of the 'safe operations' envelope occasionally, in a controlled way. How else can he be expected to define them? That's what Tim appears to have done.

Poly · 17 November 2009, 11:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl

check again on chi met and camber met,which is closer to pompey,

I stand corrected the cambermet archive shows a single gust of 60.2 knots at around 11.30 am. I don't think its reasonable to take one result from one single gust at one single location (some distance away) and therefore claim that it was F11, or gusting >60 knots. All the other data points clearly indicate that this was not a representative picture.

It really makes little difference because I would defend Tim's right to assess the situation any make up his own mind, based on all the available information, as for any other pleasure or charter skipper.

Quote:

bored of this now,we seem to be going round and round in circles.

well don't make comments on public forums if your not prepared to defend them.