Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 
Old 05 May 2015, 15:11   #1
Member
 
Country: UK - Channel Islands
Length: 5m +
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 7
bilge pump / solar panel solutions?

Hi, newbie here.. i'm just in the process of buying a small rib which i will be fitting out myself. Humber 5m assault with Evinrude 2s 50hp.
as the boat will be kept in a marina all year I'm thinking about fitting a bilge pump with solar charger for the battery top-up. The pump will only be for pumping rain water.
seems like i need to guess how much its going to rain in order to work out what size charger i will need.. Has anyone else been down this route and could you tell me what solution works? i.e. what size solar panel is realistic?
i'm not sure how well a solar charger will work when its raining either!!
Thanks
__________________
uhtred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05 May 2015, 19:00   #2
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Length: 3m +
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,762
What about spray...?

Anyway 5m x 3m boat = 15sq.m

500mm rain in UK average per year. So 7.5 cu.m or 7500litres. Roughly 2000galons.

That's only 4 hours continuous running on a 500gph pump.
__________________
ShinyShoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05 May 2015, 19:04   #3
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Length: 3m +
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,762
Draw is c. 2Amps. So if it was purely rain 8Ah per year. Almost any size panel would do...

I suspect you will ship far more as spray.
__________________
ShinyShoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05 May 2015, 19:16   #4
RIBnet Supporter
 
willk's Avatar
 
Country: Ireland
Length: 4m +
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 14,684
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinyShoe View Post
500mm rain in UK average per year
He's not in the UK. They have a fairly dry summer.

A certain Mod wouldn't have missed that...

__________________
I'm sorry, but there IS no Mars Bar.
willk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05 May 2015, 19:17   #5
Member
 
Country: UK - Channel Islands
Length: 5m +
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 7
thanks Shiny, i have been getting to that conclusion - i dont see many solar panels in the marina on small open boats. just worrying about nothing as usual
__________________
uhtred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05 May 2015, 19:19   #6
Member
 
Country: UK - Channel Islands
Length: 5m +
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 7
ha Will, good spot
we get our share of flash floods too tho.
but i am looking forward to spinning over to Herm in the summer for an ice cream...
__________________
uhtred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05 May 2015, 19:42   #7
RIBnet admin team
 
Poly's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Boat name: imposter
Make: FunYak
Length: 3m +
Engine: Tohatsu 30HP
MMSI: 235089819
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,622
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinyShoe View Post
Draw is c. 2Amps. So if it was purely rain 8Ah per year. Almost any size panel would do...

I suspect you will ship far more as spray.
You've assumed that the annual rainfall is all in the boat at once, and the pump runs at maximum efficiency. More likely its a stop start process, with a peak draw to "spin up" and then wasted energy pumping air...

Not sure where 500 mm p.a. Comes from CI's can be double that (average is irrelevant it's worst case that matters).

If I was worried about a boat in a marina though I'd look at shore power options rather than solar panel as my first choice. Or fit a cover!
__________________
Poly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 May 2015, 07:55   #8
Member
 
Last Tango's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Town: Denny
Boat name: Highland Bluewater
Length: 6m +
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,647
Think he's worrying about nothing. If he's at the boat say every two or three weeks it'll never accumulate enough rain water to be an issue, if it's leaking that's another problem and a solar panel's not the solution. However I've seen RIBs moored here that no one has been near for months, full of water, and they seem to survive it ok. Pumped out and off they go
__________________
Last Tango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 May 2015, 08:51   #9
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Make: Ballistic
Length: 7m +
Engine: Yam 225
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,003
or one of these , no power needed Wave powered pump
__________________
Starovich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 May 2015, 20:24   #10
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Length: 3m +
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,762
Oh I wasn't necessarily saying its not an issue. I've heard of plenty of people who have found their battery dead... several reasons why that happens:

- Jammed float switch keeps pump on all the time (No solar system will compensate for that!)
- Lots of rain. See below - you need to know if full of water = damage or inconvenience
- Spray / waves. I think is significant
- Frequency of boat use. Can you get by with topping up a bit if not fully

I took a figure from the metoffice website but I can't find the page right now. Re-searching comes up with a different figure on their site! Wiki quotes different data still which is MASSIVELY higher. Climate of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - some of the regular posters on here will be chaulking up 4,500mm in a year.

So 9 times the figure I quoted and I didn't point out the obvious that Poly did that you don't let the boat fill with a year's water and pump it out. So you don't get the efficiency either. But annually that might mean 36hours of running assuming we are shipping no spray. While thats an average of 3 hours a month not all months are average. Its also not unknown to get "freak" weather events where a months rain falls in a day. You'd need to decide what you want to happen in those situations. Will the boat be damaged by being half full of water?

The Met Office provide monthly data on a map and "helpfully" list a lot of places in winter with >250mm /month, and some with >800mm / quarter. UK climate information - Met Office

I think realistically you might want to assume 500mm per bad month was a possibility - so 8Ah in a bad month from Rain. That will be the same month you don't visit the boat cause the weather is cr@p and the light is poorest so charging is reduced. 8Ah would still be fine. Doubling or even tripping that for inefficiency
would be fine. Doubling that again for spray might be stretching it.

So the other question is what size solar panel were you thinking? If its something permanently attached to A Frame or console then:
- Position not optimal for sun all year round - assume only 50% efficiency (See: Optimum Tilt of Solar Panels) - but may be far worse than this if can't be mounted well even for best winter angle.
- Size is very limiting - 1.5W might be about the right size

In the heaviest rain months (winter) the light will be poorest. Maybe 6-8 hours of decent light and will be some very dull days. The 1.5W is perfect position, with bright sun. Advice I've seen seems to be to assume on a dull day its 50%. So bad position plus bad light takes you to 25% of 1.5W. So 375mW x 6 Hrs = 2.25W/Hr = 187mAh. Over 30 days that would add 5.6Ah of charge to the battery. Over the same period you would be drawing something like 24Ah if its heavy rain, not efficient because of on-off on pump and shipping spray. So you get a net loss of 18Ah from the battery. In a single month thats probably OK - but would question if a loss of 24Ah wasn't also OK. In two months thats 36Ah which is taking a 70Ah battery towards the "discharged" point. Without the solar panel you get there two weeks earlier.

Thats all conjecture. But I doubt 6 weeks vs 8 weeks matters...?

To really know you need to fill your boat to the point the float kicks in and measure the power consumption till the float switches off. Then calculate rain and spray required to activate that and how many times etc, and what power you need to replace that and therefore what solar panel to look at.

Anyway - My message was not so much meant to mean it wont draw that much power rather that rain might not be the biggest issue so calculating for rain rather than spray might not make sense...
__________________
ShinyShoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 May 2015, 20:46   #11
Member
 
Pete7's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Gosport
Boat name: April Lass
Make: Moody 31
Length: 9m +
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,951
We have 3 solar panels on the yacht. 1 x 80w and 1 x 45w permanently mounted keep the batteries fully topped up. With a portable 60w panel as well we see 11 amps in the mid day sun. The problem you will have is not knowing the daily requirements until its all fitted, used and measured for a while. We have a battery monitor to keep track of things, but its OTT for a small rib.

So a 20-30W panel will generate 1 - 2 amps in good sunshine. If you are fitting an A frame design it so that a panel con be mounted flat over the top of the engines out of the way. Presumably you are going for two batteries, so the solar panel will keep them topped up with some clever wiring. You also need a PWM charger to stop the panel over charging or discharging at night. Remember the pump will be an auto type so consume some power permanently even when not pumping.

Try something like this which is cheap enough.

20 W MONOCRYSTALLINE SOLAR PANEL 20 WATTS BATTERY CHARGER 12V PV-with 3M CABLE | eBay

Pump ?

Whale Supersub Smart 650 Bilge Pump Super Sub - New - A28 | eBay

Now, having costed all this would it be cheaper to buy a cheap boat cover instead?

Pete
__________________
.
Ribnet is best viewed on a computer of some sort
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 May 2015, 21:02   #12
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Plymouth
Boat name: HAPPY NOW
Make: Cobra
Length: 8m +
Engine: Mercury 350
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 204
Too technical

I have been watching this thread get rather technical the poor original poster must think he has joined a science/physics forum.

I used to have a Avon 580 RIB in Torquay Marina for a couple of years that had no cover, so consequently collected a fair bit of rain.

Over the first 6 months I had a flat battery about 4 times. I then decided to fit a 8 watt solar panel that supposedly is not powerful enough to overcharge a battery but sufficient to keep the battery charged up. After fitting this I never had a flat battery again.

The bilge pump was a Rule 750 connected through a float switch so when the pump was not working there was no battery drain.

How does a boat get spray inside when it is kept in a marina?

With regards to the technical answers I did not see any calculations for evaporation !!!

Keep it simple
__________________
Sutty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 May 2015, 21:12   #13
Member
 
Pete7's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Gosport
Boat name: April Lass
Make: Moody 31
Length: 9m +
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,951
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutty View Post

Keep it simple
Like using a boat cover instead?
__________________
.
Ribnet is best viewed on a computer of some sort
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07 May 2015, 07:36   #14
Member
 
Country: UK - Channel Islands
Length: 5m +
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 7
Thanks for the replies - i am ok with the calculations - i did something similar. i got to the point where i realised i was still guessing the rainfall, even after looking at typical averages/max. i hadnt allowed for the losses etc though. Thats why i was interested to see if anyone has been there, done that with the solar panel and i appreciate the feedback on that too

Anyway thanks again for the replies I had a box of goodies arrive yesterday - all my electronics - so just need the boat and engine in the next couple of weeks... no doubt i will be bugging you again for thoughts on tube antifoul, etc
__________________
uhtred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09 May 2015, 18:21   #15
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Length: 3m +
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sutty View Post
. I then decided to fit a 8 watt solar panel
is that fitted all the time or just when tied up? Got an old 8w panel and its pretty large...

Quote:
How does a boat get spray inside when it is kept in a marina
I must frequent the wrong marinas. Wind + solid things for waves etc to hit = spray...
__________________
ShinyShoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT. The time now is 04:12.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.