Pacific 22 needs new engine!

roohairy · 16 April 2004, 01:08

Hi all,

Need some advice from P22 owners, I'm looking at a P22 with no engine or leg, what should I put in it's place and how much power should I go for? The boat I'm looking at has had the engine box moved right aft, any comments on this re trim / balance?
I was thinking about a marinised version of the GM 6.5turbo engine, has anyone come across this engine and have an opinion on it? V8 diesel, 6.5 turbo, 225Hp @ 3800, 385Kg marinised, this looks like the upper limit for the sternpower 101 leg. Incidentally there are more powerful versions available, up to 285Hp Samurai dersels
Would anyone advise me to go for a different make of leg, given that this is a blank canvas so to speak?

Thanks for your comments in advance, and thanks to all for your input to this forum - I've learned a lot, this will be my first rib been in hard boats till now.

Roohairy

Pete7 · 16 April 2004, 08:06

Roo, regarding the GM Diesels, you might want to have a chat with John Fuller over on Boatmad who has a speedboat with 2 of them in it. Although those of us of Ribnet think it needs a set of tubes to keep the stern up a bit.

http://www.boatmadforum.co.uk/

Also worth having a look at:

http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/In...tion=home.home

The easiest engine to put in it would be another Mermaid Turbo Four and Stern Drive. However I would certainly check the max power for a Sternpower before connecting up the GM. Try Mermaid they are a great source of information and have a brilliant Onwers Club with 24 hour assistance for £15 per year. Mermaid are at:

http://www.mermaid-marine.co.uk/home.htm

If you are after a cheap Mermaid and Sternpower then Jamie at Extreme Marine Ltd will probably have what your after, although you will need negotiating powers of Henry Kissenger to get a real bargin out of him.

http://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/broker/EML001

Let us know how you get on with the purchase.

Regards Pete

roohairy · 16 April 2004, 11:55

Thanks for your replies Pete. How much space is there in the standard P22 engine box, does it have to be a 4 cylinder engine for length? Found a few 6 cylinders going cheap last night. Advantage of the GM V8 is that it's practically the same length as a 4 cylinder, but more power. From the specs on Lancing's site, a 101 sternpower leg should be ok with 225Hp but I haven't spoken to anyone about it yet, not in UK at the moment.

Pete7 · 16 April 2004, 20:30

Roo, not sure about 225 hp, I have the manual and seem to remember doing a calculation that came out at 175 hp tops, but it depends on the revs. There is always a few turbo fours about because the Fairy Owners use them as well. Mermaid have a factory of used engines too.

Loads of room in the engine bay and it will take a six easily. There is a jack shaft to the stern drive so this could easily be shortened for a six. Neville has chopped an engine box down to give 12" more room athough even more is possible.

Pete

roohairy · 16 April 2004, 20:44

Thanks for yet more info pete, the GM engine reaches max power at 3800 rpm so it's a good bit faster than the mermaid as long as I can get a prop to suit without a reduction gear.... need to talk to the someone who actually knows what he's talking about first though - Lies, Damned lies and statistics to quote someone famous but I've forgotten who! (Disraeli??)

Roohairy

Just realised that this looks like I'm saying you don't know what you're talking about, didn't mean it like that was referring to my limited knowledge!

Pete7 · 16 April 2004, 21:13

Roo, no problem mate. Recon you need to speak to cyril at Mermaid, font of all knowledge and helped me a few times even on a bank holiday weekend!

Pete

Ian Austin · 16 April 2004, 22:08

Hi Roohairy
Forget the samurai deisels, they are a bit suspect in the build quality, they seem to be OK for vehical conversions, but heard a lot of bad reports when fitted into boats.

I am going to later fit a GM 6.5 V8 300 hp to mine but from this company www.marinediesel.nu and fit it to a Merc Alpha 1 or Bravo 2 outdrive and go for 300 hp, i have seen the 300 hp engine in the flesh and it look the dogs b*locks almost to good to fit in a boat.

roohairy · 16 April 2004, 23:55

Thanks for the tip Ian, who is the UK agent (web links not working) and where are they based? Do you know what they charging? I've got a limited budget as I haven't sold my other boat yet!
I haven't heard anything bad about Samurai in relation to vehicles, and haven't come across any comments at all about their marinisations. In what way are they bad?

Roohairy

Found the UK dealer, marinemaintenance

Dirk Diggler · 17 April 2004, 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Austin

Hi Roohairy

I am going to later fit a GM 6.5 V8 300 hp to mine but from this company www.marinediesel.nu and fit it to a Merc Alpha 1 or Bravo 2 outdrive and go for 300 hp,

Your obviously not intending to do much boating if you plan to use an Alpha 1 on a 300hp "marine diesel". Might be wise to fit a large bow eye and invest in a good quality tow rope.

The importer of these motors are based in Hamble Point marina, Marine Maintenance are only dealers for them.

roohairy · 17 April 2004, 20:00

Ian Austin - thanks for the warning, can you tell me exactly what the problems were, privately if you wish? I've only come across them from Landrover re-engining and they seem to do quite well at that, can't find any feedback elsewhere at the moment, trying to trace Jon Fuller's threads on boatmad but waiting for my log-in.
Have you got a firm plan for putting a GM in?

Ian Austin · 17 April 2004, 21:52

Hi Roohairy
There is a big question on the cooling, this engine needs a large amount of water.
The engines are imported from the USA and are subject to an overhaul ????
which is just a quick once over, these engines are removed from scraped or smashed vehicals, so are second hand the others are brand new fully marinised and ready to fit, the last time i enquired ( just over a year ago ) the price quoted was for the engine alone, then you will need the marinising kit which is nearly as much as the engine, which if i remeber correctly came to around £7,500 - £8,000.
No i have no firm plan for fitting the engine yet, as it seams a shame as mine had only done 208 hrs when i bought it.
Marine maintaince are no longer the importers any more but there is a place on the South coast, sorry can't find the company, but i do have the managers name and phone number if you want.

The guy said they have fitted these engines on to Alpha one's without any prob's unlike Bravo 3's which die very quickly.

Pete7 · 17 April 2004, 21:59

Gents I think the problem with these engines is the torque they produce, ie too much, which is what Dirk is trying to refer to. It will just tear an Alpha 1 to pieces and there are limits on stern powers too. I looked into this a few years ago and put a Nissan 6 into a Landie rather than a V8 because they had a reputation of trashing landie gearboxes and half shafts.

Pete

Ian Austin · 17 April 2004, 22:09

Hi Pete
after speaking to the guy, he said they fitted a 400 hp version in a rib to use as a demo, they had to go for surface drive as there are no outdrives that will take that amount of torque.
I will really, really look into the outdrive setup before i make the decision to go for it, i was a bit supprised when he said Alpha 1, but i think he might of ment the x drive, did they make an Alpha 1 x ?????

Plankton · 17 April 2004, 23:19

Apologies for barging in on this thread but the words "jack-shaft" caught my eye. I've seen a lot of small boats in the USA with jack-shafts and they work great. Has anyone done the same to a RIB in this country ? I would imagine that having a diesel amidships (imagine the seat you could build on it) and thence a small 4 or 5 foot long drive shaft to the stern-drive unit would be a sensible solution ...........or am I abnormally deficient in grey matter in missing something ? I do know that some of the installations I've seen abroad gave excellent access to the diesel itself, plus you have a flush deck all the way aft. Any thoughts ? Could this scenario be retro-fitted to an exisitng craft ?

Again, apologies for butting in.

Roddy

roohairy · 17 April 2004, 23:29

I'm really thinking about the 225Hp version of the V8, as I see it these are the advantages:

It's cheap! £2750 recon, plus marinising kit at about £1600 from memory as their sites down. Doubtless +vat. Not that cheap after all, 5000 inc vat marinised for 190Hp, 6500 for 225!

It's light!150!Kg lighter than mermaid. By the way do mermaid engine block all start 27.., ie are they the same basic block as the old Ford D series as that's what I've got now, 2712E.

The engine is physically the same size as the mermaid (fit in the same 'box'), but a larger capacity so should be running at a lower stress. A little bit extra power never goes amiss too...

It's running at much higher RPM, so the percentage of the allowed HP per 100rpm for the leg is smaller than the turbo 4 even with more power. Pete you're right 167Hp @ 2500rpm is the limit for the 101 leg, but 254Hp @ 3800. However this would leave the prop running at nearly 2900rpm, is this too fast? My current boat runs at 2500rpm, 'Standard' P22's should be 1900rpm if the legs are standard. This is getting out of my experience now...

From rough estimations if I did this I'd be running a 17" prop to get 36kts at WOT. Got a gut feeling that this wouldn't be a good setup, can anybody tell me if this is ok or not? Going to speak to the people you've suggested when I get home, thanks for all the help.

EDIT I think I've got the calcs a bit wrong, 225HP won't push it to 36 will it? so I'd be looking at 15" or maybe 16" if I can get one. Doesn't sound right.

roohairy · 17 April 2004, 23:38

Pete what is the ratio for your leg, is it 1.32? And you're putting 200HP through it without problems, (I take it!) so maybe I'd be ok if I got the 2:1 reduction version, rated 216Hp @ 3800rpm Whaddayathink?

Going to go and stick my head in a bucket of ice, got steam coming out of my ears now. Will probably have nightmares abour props, gearboxes and final drive ratios tonight....

roohairy · 17 April 2004, 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plankton

Has anyone done the same to a RIB in this country ?

Roddy, Most if not all Pacific 22's have been built this way since the early 70's and it seems to be a popular arrangement. I think they're the only mass produced ones though.

Dirk Diggler · 18 April 2004, 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Austin

Hi Roohairy
There is a big question on the cooling, this engine needs a large amount of water.

The engines are imported from the USA and are subject to an overhaul ...

The guy said they have fitted these engines on to Alpha one's without any prob's unlike Bravo 3's which die very quickly.

If "these" engines that your refering to are Marine Diesel, then cooling is not an issue. They are a direct replacement for a Mercruiser petrol, and use all the same ancillaries, including water pump.

The base motors are new AM General engines, as used in the Hummer, the company in Sweden marinise them, or in the case of the 300hp+ models, modify them, but they are all new engines. The ex scrapyard, s/h motors that your refering to are supplied by a firm called Samurai, and are best avoided unless you like lots of work and heartache!!

The guy who reckons that an Alpha 1 is suitable is obviously a halfwit, and no there is not an Alpha 1 X.

The company at Hamble Point Marina who import them have a "410hp" Demo, which is installed in "one of the most desirable Mark Pascoe 9 mtr Sportribs", on a surface drive.

I did hear a rumour that the current motor is only a 300hp model, Jon Fuller over on Boatmad has the only 410hp version in the country, and it's being fitted to a Bravo 1, and installed in a Hard (proper) boat!!!

Pete7 · 18 April 2004, 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by roohairy

Pete what is the ratio for your leg, is it 1.32? And you're putting 200HP through it without problems, (I take it!) so maybe I'd be ok if I got the 2:1 reduction version, rated 216Hp @ 3800rpm Whaddayathink?

Hmm, Stern power legs are like £6000 each new so not sure thats a starter. You would be better off with a secondhand one. The ratio is 1:1.32, but don't forget there is a gearbox as well as the sterndrive, think (!) the ratio is 1:1.5.

How fast are you trying to go ? the major advantage of Pacifics is that they are big cheap ribs. If you are spending serious money and want to go really fast you might be better off with something else. Alternatively buy Brians for £13.500. Don't forget the empty boat weighs 1600 kgs. Thats over 2 tonnes with fuel and people so is never going to be really fast.

If your looking to put a cheap Pacific together then keeping everything as near standard will make life easier and more cost effective. Fault finding easier as we know what you have got, spares are readily available anywhere (Ford) etc. We know what size props are required and the wiring! OMG bad enough with the standard loom never mind making one from scratch. The re-sale value is also known, whilst a GM engine, different gearbox, larger jack shaft and different ratio stern drive. Nah too complicated and at the risk of building something unreliable. I want to go to sea in a boat I know will come home again. Seen to many ribs with stern drives being towed home. That extra speed is going to take an awful lot of work and risk to achieve when you could be out on the water with a reliable boat.

Afterall a second hand stern drive should be about £1500 and engines £2000. Gearbox £500, add a pony for Mermaid to tweak the pump and you have 170 - 180 hp and a 28 - 30 knot rib.

My sterndrive does get warm by the way after about an hour. Not hot just warm to touch, fitting a shower might be an answer. However putting 225 - 250 hp through it at 3800 rpm, well good luck.

200 hp x 1:1.5 gearbox x 1:132 sterndrive and a 21" prop will give 30-31 knots in light trim @ 2600 rpm. 28 knots with full MCA coding equipment and 170 litres of the red desiel. It might go faster but the acceleration to get on the plane will be awful so I settle for 21" props for now. Although keep watching.

Pete

roohairy · 18 April 2004, 12:10

Have edited prices etc above now Samurai's site's working, it looked a cheap engine but it's working out more than I thought.

Pete I thought the final drive through the 101 leg was 1.32:1? This gives 32 knots @ 2500 before slip, slip about 6% which sounds about right.

I really want to be able to cruise at 22 to 25 kts, max 30 to 35 so the Pacific is only just getting there, the thought of a bit extra power from a lighter engine was tempting! Also I'm starting from a modified boat, the engine box has been moved to the stern already but no machinery. Think it had a volvo in it but not sure.

Maybe I'll just look around for a second hand engine and see what I can find - thanks everyone for your comments. Does anyone know what a Bravo1 leg costs? Can't find any prices on the internet at all!