15hp Johnson Tiller/Elec Wiring question

Sinistre1 · 11 February 2008, 15:21

Let me start by apologizing in advance for the Newb-ness of my question but I am in fact a Newb. I recently purchased said outboard for use on my Mercury340 sport (Yes, not a RIB per se). Used it twice in the fall and winterized before putting it away. Spring is coming and i'd like to use the electric start and charging capability. I already purchased a 20 amp motorcycle type battery. My question is this: There are only two wires comingout of the engine. Red and black with ring terminals at the end. I hooked them up to the battery (motor on a stand and in a barrel) and it turned over right away which I did not expect. The manual that came with the motor shows a switch/ starter circuit. So I expected the motor would not start until I found and pushed the button (doh!). Guess i should have looked first cause there is no button and the solenoid does its thing as soon as I complete the battery hookup. What gives? I know I could put a switch in the red cable but how would the motor charge up the battery with a switch blocking it and more importantly I assume as long as the battery is connected in that fashion the starter will just keep on starting (not so good on a running engine). Am I missing a wire or two? Should there only be two wires coming from the engine? How does the motor charge the battery from the same two wires?

Again I apologize but I am a little stumped. As best as I can make out from the schematic in the manual there appears to be two separate circuits. One cgoing from "charging output to the battery to ground (PVC boat no ground. Grounded back to the motor?) and one going from hot to switch to starter to ground. The output of the charger has an always completed ciruit the starter has a usually open. Is this right it makes sense sort of but that means something is missing in my set up. Oh yes, and there is a loop on the outboard that looks like a ring terminal. Could this be for common ground? Very much obliged for all that take the time to help this Newb across the pond.

Sinistre1 · 12 February 2008, 01:41

Know i'm probably being a bit impatient, but I was kind of hoping someone could steer me in th right direction? Anyone?

Nos4r2 · 12 February 2008, 05:57

It sounds like the 2 wires you have coming out are just connected to the starter motor-in which case your charging system may not be connected and you may not have a starter solenoid.

Have a look under the cover,see what you can find and maybe post a pic of under there (both sides of the engine would be useful).

Sinistre1 · 12 February 2008, 13:33

Will do (pictures). Not sure how to post them or even if I can (is there a limitation on the number of posts one needs before he is able to post a picture (some forums have a minimum requirement)). I thought something might be missing. I'm at work now and I know there is a time difference. I won't be home for at least 10 hours.

As a side note, is it unusual for an electric start motor to come wired in this fashion or is it a case of the previous owner doing a modification. It just seems that anyone who goes through the trouble of seting up an electric start outboard especially at that size, would want to have it set up to charge the battery.

Oh, last question, would the starter solenoid be attached to the starter and readily identifiable as such. I assumed there was a solenoid but in hindsight if the engine started right up there may not be one. I don't recall the starter gear being in direct contact with the flywheel before I connected the battery. The solenoid, if I am not mistaken, is the part that pushes the gear into position to start the engine. *It may help me to know what i'm looking at when I get in tonight.

Thanks again for your trouble and patience.

Sinistre1.

P.S.

Nos4r2, I am a bit deficient in foreign terminology. What does sheep worrying mean? Couldn't help but wonder when I saw it in your profile and it gave me pause! Lol.

Nos4r2 · 12 February 2008, 14:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinistre1

Will do (pictures). Not sure how to post them or even if I can (is there a limitation on the number of posts one needs before he is able to post a picture (some forums have a minimum requirement)). I thought something might be missing. I'm at work now and I know there is a time difference. I won't be home for at least 10 hours.

No limits, just use the 'manage attachments' bit when you post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinistre1

As a side note, is it unusual for an electric start motor to come wired in this fashion or is it a case of the previous owner doing a modification. It just seems that anyone who goes through the trouble of seting up an electric start outboard especially at that size, would want to have it set up to charge the battery.

It's not usual, but it may be that a previous owner has had all the electrics on the boat rather than the engine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinistre1

Oh, last question, would the starter solenoid be attached to the starter and readily identifiable as such. I assumed there was a solenoid but in hindsight if the engine started right up there may not be one. I don't recall the starter gear being in direct contact with the flywheel before I connected the battery. The solenoid, if I am not mistaken, is the part that pushes the gear into position to start the engine. *It may help me to know what i'm looking at when I get in tonight.

The solenoid is electrical-It'll be bolted to the main positive power wire for the starter and will have 3 or 4 wires attached-2 will be bolt terminals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinistre1

P.S.

Nos4r2, I am a bit deficient in foreign terminology. What does sheep worrying mean? Couldn't help but wonder when I saw it in your profile and it gave me pause! Lol.

If you were a sheep, what would worry you?

Poly · 12 February 2008, 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinistre1

As a side note, is it unusual for an electric start motor to come wired in this fashion or is it a case of the previous owner doing a modification. It just seems that anyone who goes through the trouble of seting up an electric start outboard especially at that size, would want to have it set up to charge the battery.

My engine is a similar size but not a Johnson. It certainly had two fairly large cables which connect to the battery and charge it - and a separate wiring "loom" for other things - including, IIRC activating the starter motor.

Could this engine have been used as an auxilliary/donkey/trolling engine in its previous life? where the main engine may be used to charge the battery and this only needed electric start? just a suggestion.

Sinistre1 · 13 February 2008, 04:59

These pictures are lousy. Need to borrow a camera or get a photo editing program to resize from my camera. Anyway...

Sinistre1 · 13 February 2008, 05:02

three more> maybe two with a duplicate. It's late

I see extra wiring in the middle shot that I didn't see before. That is probably the solenoid wiring. Outboard stand was crap. Tipped over and the motor dropped about three feet to the ground (standing height of the motor. Did I trash it

This all seems so easy in the brochures.

Nos4r2 · 13 February 2008, 09:12

It looks like everything's there under the hood. I can see a starter solenoid and wires from a charging system,along with possibly a voltage rectifier.

You really need to get a manual now and trace that wiring back.

9D280 · 13 February 2008, 10:23

Quick silly question - is there a starter switch hiding round the front somewhere? May seem like a daft question, but my old Suzuki had a blanking plate where If I had the tiller steer electric start model the ignition switch would be fitted. I had the remote version, so a plastic blanking cap was fitted. My current yam the "local" controls are buried under the front of the engine and not immediately obvious, but it's been designed as mainly remote control, so the local (emergency) stuff is hidden.

A pic of the front of the engine (i.e from where you would be standing in the boat) might give a clue as to whether it has a "local" go button, and / or show traces of any remote control cable exits.

Is there a big multi pole connector somewhere under the lid? That would give a clue as to whether it was on a remote key or not.

Sinistre1 · 13 February 2008, 15:38

Actually there is a pushbuttony sort of looking thing in the front of the engine where one might expect a starter button to go but it seems to be permanently affixed. I actually tried to push it thinking it might be a button but it is not. It is definitely a different kind of plastic than the areas surrounding it and it does seem to be a cap. It is under the cowl though. I would think the starter should be on the front or outside of the cowl. In either case, this is good stuff. I think my weekend plans are forming!

Nos4r2 · 13 February 2008, 23:53

How old is the engine? I may have a PDF workshop manual for it.

Sinistre1 · 14 February 2008, 01:21

it's a 1999 model.

9D280 · 14 February 2008, 09:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinistre1

Actually there is a pushbuttony sort of looking thing in the front of the engine where one might expect a starter button to go but it seems to be permanently affixed. I actually tried to push it thinking it might be a button but it is not.

Unless it's a stuck button? Any wires out the back of it?

Sounds a lot like my old Suz. I had two blanking plates - one big one over what would be the starter key switch, the other over what would be the E- stop / deadman. If that was the case (i.e. electric start, tiller control) I would have thought those would be obvious. Makes me think there will be a big (6+ pin) connector, probably down the LH side (as you would look at it from in the boat) which may have been tucked out of harm's way or just dropped down into the bowels of the engine if it's not supported by the cable.

If it was a full remote control machine, there will be more holes at the front (probably 3, near where the battery cables come through the casing) to let the throtttle / gear cables and the remote wiring out.

It crosses my mind that if it cranked when you connected the battery, the "start" pin (assuming the plug is hiding somewhere under the cyl / carb) shorted against something metallic?

Good luck at the weekend.....

Sinistre1 · 14 February 2008, 13:56

Definitely don't like the sound of anything shorting out under the cowl. Will have to have my look-see. I'll try to see if I can find that connector on the sides of the engine. At least it doesn't sound like i'm going to have to try to manufacture or make my own retrofit. Not knowing much about outboards i'd be afraid to fry some little, important, expensive electrical bit

Sinistre1 · 16 February 2008, 21:51

I've got the cowl off as I type and I have found out all kinds of good stuff. Throttle doesn't go full wide (gonna adjust that of course!!) open there's about 20 degrees left at the plate when the twist is full open. The Gear adjustment is off wasn't going into neutral as smoothly as it does with the cowl and pull start off and I can now see ALL the wiring. Gonna take a snack break and have back at it. it's really not that bad in their at all. Always felt comfortable under the hood (bonnet?) of a car but thought the outboard would be a completely different animal. Turns out, not so much. Wanted to take the time to thank you guys for the assist.

Nos4r2 · 16 February 2008, 22:40

No problem

Unfortunately the PDF manual I've got here doesn't go as far as '99.

Sinistre1 · 16 February 2008, 23:26

Attached a few de-cowled pics. Hit a bit of a bump. Figures. Everything was going great until while cleaning around in the engine a piece of metal hits the ground. I don't believe I broke it off anything (unless it happened when the engine fell a couple of days ago). It may even have been in there from the previous owner. In any case it appears to be a part of a circlip. It appears the entire clip would have been about an inch and a half to two inches across. Any clues. I attached a picture. Would hate to get out on the water a month from now and have the bottom half fall off!

Nos4r2 · 17 February 2008, 07:52

Hmmm.... that's a hard question.

It doesn't look like an internal circlip-the outer edge is rounded. It looks more like an external e-clip but it's too big for anything I can think of on the engine unless it's come from up around the recoil starter( worth checking) or the tiller. It does look like it's been broken by someone removing it-that's the way they always seem to break when removing them.In which case it might have just landed in there when it went 'ping' and flew off something unrelated before you bought it.

It's certainly not anything loadbearing.

Locozodiac · 17 February 2008, 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinistre1

Attached a few de-cowled pics. Hit a bit of a bump. Figures. Everything was going great until while cleaning around in the engine a piece of metal hits the ground. I don't believe I broke it off anything (unless it happened when the engine fell a couple of days ago). It may even have been in there from the previous owner. In any case it appears to be a part of a circlip. It appears the entire clip would have been about an inch and a half to two inches across. Any clues. I attached a picture. Would hate to get out on the water a month from now and have the bottom half fall off!

Hola Sinistre1

Although it's a very cheap and stupid part, let me tell you that because of this ruinned an entire Evi 15 HP 2 stroke engine, that happened years ago, I was so pissed because of such event, theat even wrote the Evi technical manger because of the problem to make a claim and how to modify/replace the defective part for a better one and less harmfull. Find real factory carelessness that a cheap part can at least be crome plated so to avoid going to two pieces (generally that's the problem).

If it's the part I'm surely thinking of, you are a lucky owner, because the other part still might be sitting where it was supposed to be and you have found the other half.

Right now going for a Sea Rider 420 Sib test, but when I come, will put the whole unknown issue so you and other Ribneters be aware of the 10/15 HP Evi/Joh menace problem.

Happy Boating