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Old 07 January 2010, 08:46   #21
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Not correct
how big then? you can't get all that kit on something much smaller without failing the survey with free board, my info never came from the 280 brief notes but from the horses mouth, mca southampton, i would also like to hear from any cabin rib guys with coded boats, i'm brewing up for a war with them over cat2 coding, they say that a cabin like the scorpion is not cat 2 but in there brief it just say's permanent fixed enclosure not wheel house as they want, i pionted out that the cabin had more space than the liferafts they want me to carry and they agreed, then they said quote "it's not we had in mind when we thought about cat2" my advise to you would be do what you feel is right for safety cause sure as f*&k they haven't a clue
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Old 07 January 2010, 12:38   #22
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Ive seen a 4.5m Coded RIB in Amble Marina Northumberland.

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Old 07 January 2010, 12:49   #23
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Ive seen a 4.5m Coded RIB in Amble Marina Northumberland.

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that must have looked stupid with 2x life rings, 2xanchors, liferaft, flares, compass,radar reflector, etc, etc, the only thing i can think is they had a transom to the top of the tubes with a x long shaft engine on the back, it's the only way it would test up
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Old 07 January 2010, 14:04   #24
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that must have looked stupid with 2x life rings, 2xanchors, liferaft, flares, compass,radar reflector, etc, etc, the only thing i can think is they had a transom to the top of the tubes with a x long shaft engine on the back, it's the only way it would test up
Liferaft was on a frame on the bow, life rings on a frame.

All 4.5m RIBs would be long shaft, easy enough to put a skirt on it though.

Dangerous really all that weight in such a small boat.

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Old 07 January 2010, 14:16   #25
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dangerous yes, that is one of my gripes with them, they should be promoting safety but they're not, most of the blokes at the mca are yaghties or big boat people, i invited them out on mine but they couldn't be bothered, how can these idiots make policy on something they haven't been on or have what seems no idea about, most of the boat manufacturers have on the smaller boats the same mouldings that were for 2 stroke engines, they haven't altered there transoms or moulds for more displacement for the heavier kit again dangerous
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Old 07 January 2010, 14:45   #26
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Dangerous really all that weight in such a small boat.
Which bit is particularly heavy?

2x life rings, - can't be that heavy they float
2*x anchors, - you'd have one anyway, the kedge only needs to be 3.6 kg and its warp can be used as a tow rope
liferaft*, - only has to be big enough for the number of people the boat is coded for - so surely thats possible with less than 30 kg?
flares, you'd be carrying them anyway (and possibly more than the min 2reds, 2smokes)
compass, - you'd have one anyway
radar reflector*, not heavy

*
If the boat is only opperating as Cat 6 (quite possible for a small boat) 2nd anchor not required; and liferaft only needs to be open type (and in very limited cirumstances [annex 4] may not even need a liferaft; radar reflector not 100% mandatory

There's people on here with Seariders, small Humbers etc, not to mention SIBs who go on reasonable cruises carrying pretty much everything you need except for the liferaft - but quite often with an aux.
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Old 07 January 2010, 16:42   #27
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you've forgot the etc etc, to my mind in a boat that size OTT and in constant danger of swamping at rest
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Old 07 January 2010, 17:42   #28
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In some respects I agree about the RIB size as I looked at a new 5.35 and 5.85 and when you look at what kit is needed for coding with a liferaft , it is the liferaft that takes up room and is about 40kg for a 6 man ISO craft. I settled for a 585 for additional space rather than the wieght issue.
The rest of the kit is easy in weight but we have had to discuss consul locations and liferaft location to get a good balanced RIB. The next decision was whether to have the craft in a cradle side on or cradle flat. I settled for flat to not place a balance issue of 40kg being bounced/thrown with forces created. Once I have the RIB loaded I will post an image or two
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Old 07 January 2010, 18:02   #29
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In some respects I agree about the RIB size as I looked at a new 5.35 and 5.85 and when you look at what kit is needed for coding with a liferaft , it is the liferaft that takes up room and is about 40kg for a 6 man ISO craft. I settled for a 585 for additional space rather than the wieght issue.
The rest of the kit is easy in weight but we have had to discuss consul locations and liferaft location to get a good balanced RIB. The next decision was whether to have the craft in a cradle side on or cradle flat. I settled for flat to not place a balance issue of 40kg being bounced/thrown with forces created. Once I have the RIB loaded I will post an image or two
i'm assuming with boat sizes quoted you're going for a ribtec, worked on probaly 100 boats for them, i have a transom dam mould for a 585, you might need it for the freeboard
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Old 07 January 2010, 18:09   #30
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i'm assuming with boat sizes quoted you're going for a ribtec, worked on probaly 100 boats for them, i have a transom dam mould for a 585, you might need it for the freeboard
Cheers you are correct Ribtec 585 . We are not sure yet if it needs this as this is the latest with a transom I think of 21inches (think that right?/) .

If I need a dam, do you make it from the mould? I have discussed this before with surveyor and we think the new transom gives the freeboard needed but Ribeye have said a dam can be fitted if needed
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Old 07 January 2010, 18:53   #31
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21 should be fine, ribtec used to use my mould, i took it back when i left, another ribnet member has it at the moment, have to give him a nudge to get it back
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Old 07 January 2010, 20:27   #32
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you've forgot the etc etc, to my mind in a boat that size OTT and in constant danger of swamping at rest
OK so it looks like the etc etc is:

Hydrocarbon detector: (may not be required if you have a small boat with portable fuel tanks and a sealed deck. But hardly a major weight issue)
Duplicate batteries will be a weight and space penalty on larger boats but smaller boat is likely to have pull start as a backup, so not required.
Waterproof torch ('alternative lighting' and 'signaling lamp') – you would presumably want one anyway.
Alternative method of steering (but this can be a paddle which you would have anyway suitable fixed to the engine).
600 L/h bilge pump* (not big or heavy, and most of us have one fitted)
A bucket/bailer or hand pump.
Lifejackets (which you would be wearing) + 2 spares
TPA's - 1 per person (or just 2 assuming crew/passengers are wearing immersion suits)* - that's something 1 don't carry, but I do carry spare dry clothes etc.
Handheld VHF
Siren/Alarm (fog horn?)
Fire extinguisher (34B type)
Second fire extinguisher (34B/5A)* - I don't carry 2 extinguishers but I think mine is bigger than this anyway?
VHF DSC radio*
Anchor ball (they pack flat and are lightweight so no major penalty)
Echosounder (or other means of measuring depth of available water – presumably my 'lead' line would be OK?)
Charts* (but chart plotter maybe ok)
Boarding ladder or recovery net
Cat C medical kit – a bit more than most here probably carry, but for a “safety/work boat” not unreasonable.


The above applies to an open RIB <6m in length, with an outboard engine operating Cat 4 or 5.


* May not be required for Cat 6. The freeboard requirement is also reduced in Cat 6 – provided it can be shown the boat is self draining when moving forward.

I still don't see anything there which is unnecessary and presents a significant weight penalty, except for the liferaft which weighs less than 1/2 of my weight. The total weight of the 'extra' kit will be about the same as one person - so it can't be that marginal to make a small boat unsafe - just take fewer people. I also can't see anything there that would seem unreasonable if I were a paying passenger on a small boat or an employee on a "work boat" possibly without much back-up around. Bearing in mind that this is outside categorised waters then even the liferaft might be justifiable in a commercial opperation (although I'm surprised its required for Cat 6).



I recon I could fit it all on my 4m boat. There might be a need for some transom 'extension' but otherwise it would be possible and the only issue would be storing the liferaft.
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Old 07 January 2010, 20:38   #33
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OK so it looks like the etc etc is:

Hydrocarbon detector: (may not be required if you have a small boat with portable fuel tanks and a sealed deck. But hardly a major weight issue)
Duplicate batteries will be a weight and space penalty on larger boats but smaller boat is likely to have pull start as a backup, so not required.
Waterproof torch ('alternative lighting' and 'signaling lamp') – you would presumably want one anyway.
Alternative method of steering (but this can be a paddle which you would have anyway suitable fixed to the engine).
600 L/h bilge pump* (not big or heavy, and most of us have one fitted)
A bucket/bailer or hand pump.
Lifejackets (which you would be wearing) + 2 spares
TPA's - 1 per person (or just 2 assuming crew/passengers are wearing immersion suits)* - that's something 1 don't carry, but I do carry spare dry clothes etc.
Handheld VHF
Siren/Alarm (fog horn?)
Fire extinguisher (34B type)
Second fire extinguisher (34B/5A)* - I don't carry 2 extinguishers but I think mine is bigger than this anyway?
VHF DSC radio*
Anchor ball (they pack flat and are lightweight so no major penalty)
Echosounder (or other means of measuring depth of available water – presumably my 'lead' line would be OK?)
Charts* (but chart plotter maybe ok)
Boarding ladder or recovery net
Cat C medical kit – a bit more than most here probably carry, but for a “safety/work boat” not unreasonable.


The above applies to an open RIB <6m in length, with an outboard engine operating Cat 4 or 5.


* May not be required for Cat 6. The freeboard requirement is also reduced in Cat 6 – provided it can be shown the boat is self draining when moving forward.

I still don't see anything there which is unnecessary and presents a significant weight penalty, except for the liferaft which weighs less than 1/2 of my weight. The total weight of the 'extra' kit will be about the same as one person - so it can't be that marginal to make a small boat unsafe - just take fewer people. I also can't see anything there that would seem unreasonable if I were a paying passenger on a small boat or an employee on a "work boat" possibly without much back-up around. Bearing in mind that this is outside categorised waters then even the liferaft might be justifiable in a commercial opperation (although I'm surprised its required for Cat 6).



I recon I could fit it all on my 4m boat. There might be a need for some transom 'extension' but otherwise it would be possible and the only issue would be storing the liferaft.
carry on then, clown!
tim m talk to mark towl on 02380839640 (direct line) top bloke at mca
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Old 07 January 2010, 21:14   #34
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carry on then, clown!
If I was trying to make money from my boat (or believe it would be viable) then I would. However I can manage to post in the discussion without being abusive! Perhaps you can tell us though, other than the liferaft (which many people find 'controversial' on a rib) what kit you are required to carry on say a 5m rib coded to go 20 miles from a safe haven in daylight and good weather which you think is both completely unnecessary AND actually makes the boat less safe.
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tim m talk to mark towl on 02380839640 (direct line) top bloke at mca
Is he the same guy who told you that you can't code a boat less than 6m (a fact you keep posting on here despite having been told its innacurate) even though in several places in MGN280 it says 'boats less than 6m'. You have actually read MGN280 if your in the process of coding, haven't you?
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Old 07 January 2010, 21:50   #35
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If I was trying to make money from my boat (or believe it would be viable) then I would. However I can manage to post in the discussion without being abusive! Perhaps you can tell us though, other than the liferaft (which many people find 'controversial' on a rib) what kit you are required to carry on say a 5m rib coded to go 20 miles from a safe haven in daylight and good weather which you think is both completely unnecessary AND actually makes the boat less safe.

Is he the same guy who told you that you can't code a boat less than 6m (a fact you keep posting on here despite having been told its innacurate) even though in several places in MGN280 it says 'boats less than 6m'. You have actually read MGN280 if your in the process of coding, haven't you?
i was told by a surveyor and no i have'nt read all the mgn280 as a lot of it doesn't relate to ribs, if you say you can code a 5m ok we;ll talk 5m, i'm assuming you're talking about restricted cat3 or 4, well i think you have to have the lot, but going by there stance towards ribs they may not give you either without serious restrictions, i have found that different surveyors have different ideas on how they read the 280 and when they go back to the mca for guideance that's when it really goes down hill, i have unrestricted cat 3 but it was hardwork getting it considering the boat i have.
as for being abusive, well i'm afraid i say it like i see it but i thought i was quite restrained at calling you a clown, people i don't like usually get more than that
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Old 07 January 2010, 22:37   #36
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i was told by a surveyor
Quote:
Originally Posted by biffer
my info never came from the 280 brief notes but from the horses mouth, mca southampton,


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i'm assuming you're talking about restricted cat3 or 4, well i think you have to have the lot, but going by there stance towards ribs they may not give you either without serious restrictions,
Going by the number of coded ribs around I think your 'issues' are not that they don't like ribs - but you are pushing the envelope of what they are used to with ribs.

You didn't really answer the question though. I know that you need all that lot to get coded (and yes I'm talking for the sake of argument about Cat 4 (or even 5/6!). Which piece(s) of equipment on that list do you think are excessive/unnecessary. You (or was it Jono?) seemed to imply earlier that a coded 5m rib would be dangerous and run into freeboard problems (and yet have maybe only 70 kg of extra kit on board?) - not that a 5m rib was actually unsuitable for the job at hand.
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i will stand corrected but my understanding is that they don't code boats under 6m, can you imagine trying to get all that kit on a 4.5/5m boat, it'll sink,
Sounds like you need a new surveyor.
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Old 07 January 2010, 23:53   #37
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all the surveyors work with the mca, if it gets refered to them the bucks stop with them not the surveyor. while looking through my posts you should have looked at the others where i said that because there are heavier 4 strokes on boats that use to have 2strokes on ,add to that all the kit and punters they would be unsafe. i find it hard to stow the kit on an 8.5m
we code boats so they can earn there keep, what's the point in putting all that kit on your 4m if you can't get any people on it, as you said yourself if it was viable and maybe raise the transom.
i would probaly say the liferaft is the the thing i would gripe about the most but since i have to have it it's there, but take into account that a lot of us have immersion suites or dry bags when offshore and it's very rare to sink a rib completely i don't think the raft is that important, i would like to know if anybody has ever needed to deploy a raft from a rib.
it's not that you couldn't put all that stuff on your boat and and get it coded it's laughable that you have even had this conversation about the possibity of doing it
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Old 08 January 2010, 00:38   #38
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all the surveyors work with the mca, if it gets refered to them the bucks stop with them not the surveyor.
yes but you surely want a surveyor who is confident enough that they don't need to refer it to the MCA. Unfortunately the surveyor wants to cover his ass, and the MCA beaurocrat wants to protect his pension (which means not taking 'risks'). So as soon as you introduce any 'doubt' into the process you are innevitably going to get a negative answer. What you need to do is find a surveyor who has previously coded a rib to Cat 2 (and preferably one with a cabin rather than a wheelhouse). But one who knew the rules would be a good start!
Quote:
while looking through my posts you should have looked at the others where i said that because there are heavier 4 strokes on boats that use to have 2strokes on ,add to that all the kit and punters they would be unsafe.
I take your point about 4str sitting a bit stern heavier to start with. But your missing the point that the kit doesn't weigh that much (although it takes up space). In total it weighs less than a person - and as Jono described could mostly be put up the front, which will balance out the engine a little.
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i find it hard to stow the kit on an 8.5m
we code boats so they can earn there keep, what's the point in putting all that kit on your 4m if you can't get any people on it, as you said yourself
But if you read the title of the thread - you'll see its not about packing paying punters on - then a bigger boat would undoubtedly make more sense anyway. if your boat brings in income from workboat/safetyboat stuff then actually size isn't everything, and it probably spends most of its life with only 2 people on board.
In fact I think the OP has at least one 'small' boat which is coded under local authority coding - presumably he sees a possible market opportunity - in being able to extend his coverage
Quote:
it's not that you couldn't put all that stuff on your boat and and get it coded it's laughable that you have even had this conversation about the possibity of doing it
is that a bit of back pedalling? cos you were the one saying it couldn't be done!
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Old 08 January 2010, 08:26   #39
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yes but you surely want a surveyor who is confident enough that they don't need to refer it to the MCA. Unfortunately the surveyor wants to cover his ass, and the MCA beaurocrat wants to protect his pension (which means not taking 'risks'). So as soon as you introduce any 'doubt' into the process you are innevitably going to get a negative answer. What you need to do is find a surveyor who has previously coded a rib to Cat 2 (and preferably one with a cabin rather than a wheelhouse). But one who knew the rules would be a good start!

unfortunately i do push it but if people like me didn't the mca would have us sailing around 3 miles offshore ih things like the mary rose, by all accounts i'm the first in the coutry who tried to cat2 a cabin rib

my boat does spend a lot of it's time with justme onboard that is true but it needs to be able to forfill a number of rolls as well, it gets used as a tow boat, i have a holiday home on an island, i've done some bits for the MOD and meridan tv and for the last 2years international sailing events and i stand a good chance at doing the olympic's, whati'm getting i at f you're building a boat for just one task thats great but someone always ask's you to do something else which the boat may not be suited for

is that a bit of back pedalling? cos you were the one saying it couldn't be done!
no back pedalling here you might be able to do it, where wouldy ou hang the navs and liferings, airiels radar, an a frame would be more weight, just think about it for a bit, you quoted all the kit but you also have all the normal stuff fuel tank 'seat pods, upholestry, console, people, personal kit, i still think it woulb be underwater
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Old 08 January 2010, 09:41   #40
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no back pedalling here you might be able to do it, where wouldy ou hang the navs and liferings, airiels radar, an a frame would be more weight, just think about it for a bit, you quoted all the kit but you also have all the normal stuff fuel tank 'seat pods, upholestry, console, people, personal kit, i still think it woulb be underwater
navs? do you mean navigation lights - firstly I already have them fitted, (pole and cosole) secondly they are not actually required on a boat that operates cat 4/5/6 (daylight). Again there is only one VHF ariel required (and it could be a wee helicoil type taking up vitually no space) and then only on cat 4/5 not on 6. You're right an a frame would be the easy answer but it would add significantly more weight - right at the transom where you don't want it - not to mention that fitting my aux would be even harder although its not required for coding so I can bin it and save weight. But a little bit of "lateral thinking" I am sure you could fit the liferings on some sort of holder on the inside of the sponsons right at the trasom (its a space that is never used on my boat). or maybe? on holder mounted horizontally ontop of either the engine or the liferaft.

It quite simply will NOT be underwater. All that other stuff is already on my boat and would you believe it still floats. If my boat was so marginal that adding one more person (which is the amount you are talking about) would cause problems then I would agree it is unsafe - but its not. IIRC its CE marked for 6 adults (you need to be very friendly!). So if you code for say 4 then with the extra kit on board its still running 'lighter than this'. The point I was making when I asked Jono why he claimed it was dangerous is - that small boats owners here take them on extended cruises with camping gear, spare fuel, alchohol, etc on board in addition to almost all of the kit required for coding. No one suggests that those boats are dangerous, or likely to swamp.

My reason for "persisting" in this discussion with you - is that the information you posted was wrong (boats less that 6m CAN be coded). I think it would be wrong if your misinformation, which you made sound credible by claiming it was from the MCA, was to put anyone off considering coding a boat less than 6m. I'm not suggesting that if you were going to code a small boat that you would pick one thats just under 4m long - but if I could squeeze it through then - I am sure someone with a 5m boat would actually find it comparatively easy. However I think I've made my point so I'll stop - but I would still be interested to know why Mr Garton thinks it is dangerous.
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