Whole Body Vibration Seminar

[C2 RIBS]

Originally Posted by chewy

You can get shock mitigation decking, where the entire deck is on shocks...

Yes we saw the video on this, It has a strange balance when watching their are some four to six hydraulic struts which work independently to each other and the deck so the impression you get is that all is well, but one of our speakers was out on it and there is another danger of foot entrapment if your foot leaves the platform due to movement. There is also another area they are trying to address which concerns any failure of a strut whilst out then the boat would need to stop and then lock the struts so you can helm back effectively in the normal way with no platform movement.

[C2 RIBS]

Polwart you have raised some issues that clearly I dont have the knowledge as engineers and scientists are working on this project.
Our speakers are independent and are not selling any product, they are similar I guess to health and safety speakers who are looking at a problem and have been involved in the market for years and have good credentials so they have no vested interst in selling seats, flooring or cushioning. In fact when I suggested a few ideas of helm and crew seating and leave clients on the present seats they could see a major issue when a claim is made as we identify a problem(and legislation) and protect ourselves but not the clients.

Another interesting area is where presently we could say run out at 30knts in a given sea state, it is possible that with some form of mitigation we could run at 40knts but clients who are unused to boat movements would actually be injured quicker. There is also an understanding that a skipper/helm may see rough water as OK where others would see this as amdness to travel as we get more experienced in boat handling

I will did out the figure that we presently have to meet to comply with EU guidelines.

Some products have been written up as achieving great results but when you look at the movement it is a downwards stroke when actually as we all know our movement is general forwards and down with side actions added on top (if that makes sense). If a seat can give you the correct downwards force protection does it give enough to protect on the other areas (I have no idea).

Unfortunately this EU directive has come into force and it appears that the marine industry worldwide was slow to recognise and get involved so some "good" people have signed off the legislation that is now law. That is why in an earlier post I stated the MCA are trying to catch up with their overseas partners to put all figures correctly together so a universal figure is achievable.

In relation to examption certification the MCA dont believe a charter operator will ever be allowed to achiev this as it is aimed at the likes of forces and police where the work and speed has to be done as opposed to our businesses where people pay to go on the water.

[C2 RIBS]

[QUOTE=Polwart;441029]Ian - but I'm wondering how you've arrived at 45 minutes. I know that there is some data kicking around (from MOD?) which suggests high exposure in very low times. Not surprisingly the shock mitigation suppliers are promoting those limited data sets. I can completely believe that it is possible for a boat on the solent to exceed the limits but I'm not sure how you assume 45mins when there are so many variables. Are we convinced its not the vested interests of the shock mitigation suppliers arguing that your risk is huge. Quinquari weren't which is why they seemed to come to the conclusion: "... the results were remarkable ... the vessel complied to the EU directive without need for further mitigation." Now they also have a vested interest and since they make no caveats about driver, weather conditions etc I am a little sceptical, but I support their logic - how are boat operators supposed to understand the risks if they don't have a measurement of the current exposure only other peoples estimates from different boats, conditions and drivers.

As I said I can only repeat what we were shown and then repeat an understanding. The figures that were given as the max allowed are given in EAV and the exposure for a whole day is given in ELV.
Whole Body Vibration (WBV) is the shaking or jolting of the human body through a supporting surface, usually a seat or floor. The risk from vibration is related to the overall time the operator or driver is exposed to the vibration and the number of shocks and jolts they experience each day.' This legislation covers craft under 24metres

These are the figure we presently have to meet(this means nothing to me)
the daily exposure limit value standardised to an eight-hour reference period shall be 1,15 m/s2 or, at the choice of the Member State concerned, a vibration dose value of 21 m/s1,75; (b) the daily exposure action value standardised to an eighthour reference period shall be 0,5 m/s2

When this figures were reviewed and examined they established that an 8 metre RIB reaches the limit of shock no later than 45 minutes (so best case scenario)
Some suspension seating will reduce the shock by 50% with 150mm of travel on the seat(old figures 6-8" of travel). So even with seats that achive this you just double that time before you exceed the allowed dose.

Shock reduction can be managed with speed reduction. reduce exposure to the wave, and redcue the exposure duration

Injuries can be acute- in other words sudden(compact spine etc) and immediate ot Chronic where the injury builds up over time exposed to events- (end result knees back neck pains)

This is a massive topic and I dont think I can explain the whole area as I stated I have a little knowledge and understanding, but from this I can build on how I intend to manage and mitigate, shock, vibration and noise. If I fail to do this and injuries to staff or clients occur and we have not addressed the area then I will without doubt have more blame added.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

Our speakers are independent and are not selling any product, they are similar I guess to health and safety speakers who are looking at a problem and have been involved in the market for years and have good credentials so they have no vested interst in selling seats, flooring or cushioning.

Ian - I am quite a cynic, and spend far too much of my time with so called experts who make their money by telling other people what they need to do to comply with the law. Sometimes what they say is absolutely correct. Sometimes it is open to interpretation. What I am sure of, is that it is in their interests to continue propogating the scale of the problem and how everyone needs to listen to their expertise. They might not be selling boats or seats etc - but they are presumably selling themselves.

These are the figure we presently have to meet(this means nothing to me)
the daily exposure limit value standardised to an eight-hour reference period shall be 1,15 m/s2 or, at the choice of the Member State concerned, a vibration dose value of 21 m/s1,75; (b) the daily exposure action value standardised to an eighthour reference period shall be 0,5 m/s2

that is what I am getting at. it might as well say you shouldn't exceed 2.64 megaflops per gigacookie because a normal person (indeed probably even a degree qualified physicist) has no easy way of knowing if your boat is exceeding the limits during normal operation without either some sophisticated modelling (as per the presentation mart posted) or by actually measuring the shock forces involved.

When this figures were reviewed and examined they established that an 8 metre RIB reaches the limit of shock no later than 45 minutes (so best case scenario)

Ian I'm not getting at you but this is where I think a broad brush just doesn't make sense. I can't believe that the boat design, the skipper, the weather/sea conditions, the speed it is driven at, and even the load on the boat are not all significant variables. Quinquari's findings are equally as "odd" in that they don't suggest that an inexperienced helm driving like an idiot in a F8 with huge swell might still manage to incur injury.

Did anyone bring up Quinquari's findings in the meeting?

I don't suppose there were any rules of thumb presented either? e.g. boat length v's speed v's wave height that would actually help an operator come to a reasoned decision on whether to go out, slow down, buy a bigger boat etc.

This is a massive topic and I dont think I can explain the whole area as I stated I have a little knowledge and understanding, but from this I can build on how I intend to manage and mitigate, shock, vibration and noise. If I fail to do this and injuries to staff or clients occur and we have not addressed the area then I will without doubt have more blame added.

Ian I'm not getting at you. There is certainly evidence (and I know someone personally) that WBV on boats can cause significant injury. So I think all operators need to do something, but I don't see how you will know if what you are already doing or start doing is actually enough.

[C2 RIBS]

Its ok I am taking no issue with you challenging /questioning findings as I do the same and know it is not personal.

I agree with your comments on boat design, the skipper, the weather/sea conditions, the speed it is driven at, and even the load on the boat are not all significant variables. As I hope I outlined mitigation can be made by speed reduction. reduce exposure to the wave, and reduce the exposure duration.

Did anyone bring up Quinquari's findings in the meeting? No I dont think we were ready to question some findings as their site did not give any details apart from they meet EU directives. I have though e mailed FRC who run the course and presently they were not aware of that statement. They will not comment without seeing the product plus evaluation method / data / analysis. But they are now on this to verify this statement.

I have experience of acute injury caused during operations to my neck from a client when the company we worked for have a business built around clients helming with you as a qualified skipper aboard. I took a side wave I had not seen and did my neck about two years ago. Also I have seen one other acute injury to client. As for chronic- show me a rib operator who does not suffer at some stage either now or later in life.

I think we may ahve been sold a pup from organisations just nodding and passing legislation with no understanding of the problem. The military are certainly now taking this seriously.

As operators there is a need to buy into this and work out a process that will show some understanding and duty of care as expected and presently may mean just a working knowledge and training for helms and some form of health monitoring and for clients a more robust briefing approach.

You can ask a client if they have a problem and they wont declare it but the fact you can show you have asked and outlined the issues and repeated the issue will help if something happens

Massive area but again as 250kts says dont ignore it. I will produce a briefing doc for PCA members soon for others to review

[Paul Glatzel]

I went to the Poole course earlier this month as I felt that on two levels I should be more knowledgeable about this subject. Firstly as an employer/operator I felt that given the issue of MGN436 and the RYA starting to comment on WBV I had a duty to understand better what I needed to do but also I felt that as an Instructor/Trainer I needed to be able to talk more knowledgably to those I was teaching towards becoming Commercial Skippers (or indeed examining as such).

During the course there were, as Chris (C2RIBs) states, a variety of statistics issued which no doubt can be debated for some time but what was of no doubt was that there have been plenty of issues with military boat operators, the RNLI and of course there has been no recent shortage of recent MAIB incidents that can linked to both one off impacts and repetitive impacts.

The key question I wanted to answer was what I needed to do/change as an operator. In short not too much not least of all as our activities place us firmly at the lower end of the risk scale but by implementing a few simple procedures and amending slightly our operating procedures I feel that if anything ever did happen then I can say hand on heart that I adopted a practical approach to mitigating and managing this risk. I too sit at the cynical end of the spectrum when faced with new rules, courses etc but I do feel that this is one area that it is too easy for people to take a pop at operators for so they need to ensure they protect themselves.

Regards, Paul

PS: I have no association with the course providers

[biffer]

A thought just bounced though the canyon. How come you can get feet and back massagers that vibrate and they are sold on a feel good slant.
Thrashing about on a rib is bad for you?
I have unique claim to fame in as much I have been all the way round Britain in a rib and stood up all the time. I only ever sat/collapsed when we stopped at night.
I was wedged between two V8 outboards and yes my feet went numb for about 3 months. That was a dozen years back and I still have my feet. Back and hands.
I can see where these seminars are going. The same way as everyone cries whiplash in a car crash.
Don't really know what I'm trying to say here. If this thread is to find a more comfortable way to do your job or have fun then I'm all for that.
If its to find another way to sue your employer. Claim for compensation or extract more money from us then I'm not on your side

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[Dirk Diggler]

Originally Posted by biffer

A thought just bounced though the canyon. How come you can get feet and back massagers that vibrate and they are sold on a feel good slant.........

I can see where these seminars are going. The same way as everyone cries whiplash in a car crash.
Don't really know what I'm trying to say here. If this thread is to find a more comfortable way to do your job or have fun then I'm all for that.
If its to find another way to sue your employer. Claim for compensation or extract more money from us then I'm not on your side

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+1

[Poly]

Originally Posted by biffer

A thought just bounced though the canyon. How come you can get feet and back massagers that vibrate and they are sold on a feel good slant.

there are a wide variety of vibrating products sold for "feeling good" its all about magnitude and frequency of vibration as well as the period of exposure. The term 'whole body vibration' is a bit misleading though when what they mean is 'getting shaken to breaking point'.

I can see where these seminars are going. The same way as everyone cries whiplash in a car crash.

aye, and if you delve into any area of "health and safety" you will usually find a stream of consultants all willing to tell you how dangerous your activities are and why you need to pay them money to either (a) state the bleeding obvious or (b) suggest measures which are completely impractical. If it goes the way some "on shore" health and safety is heading/has gone then it will have very little to do with actually improving safety and everything to do with showing you have a heap of paperwork; which most of the time is never looked at until someone does get hurt. The fact the people organising the events are not the MCA suggests to me that its commercial interests rather than improved safety which is the main driving force.

[passbhoy]

I have just attended the WBV Managers & WBV Crew courses over the past two days and can say from a professional boaters point of view that i have found them very informative, thought provoking, well run and expertly delivered ! We have taken a lot of information from these courses over the past two days and this info can only improve our boat operations in the long term ! I would have no problem recommending these courses to anyone

[biffer]

They ought to employ you that's is a very good recommendation What would be one of the most useful bits of information that you got from your 2 days that you could put into operating a rib charter better

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[passbhoy]

the guys from FRC have changed our views on a number of important issues. We already adhere to a very thorough boatworking safey document and as a result of this we will be rewriting some of our procedures and we are setting up a whole body vibration sub committee to look at this evolving subject. we will be changing things such as safety breifings, driving styles, awareness etc and lastly shock mitigating measures. i know there are a few cynics on here but i will be advising colleagues in other agencies to look into this area.

[biffer]

I'm glad you can see an opportunity here apart from good seats the rest seems like common sense
I'm squarely in the cynic camp I'm afraid and rewriting safety manuals and understanding how vibration affects you won't make you a better skipper in my opinion. Common sense and safety at sea is always the goal but having all these bits of paper does in some cases make skippers feel like they're superman. The kryptonite is some real bad weather knowing you've still got to go anyway. That sorts them out

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[passbhoy]

this course did not make us skippers feel superhuman, quite the opposite, it opened our eyes to many dangers and has made us very aware of many paramaters that could affect both the skipper and crew, i would call that better safety at sea and therefore better skippers and crew

[biffer]

Originally Posted by passbhoy

this course did not make us skippers feel superhuman, quite the opposite, it opened our eyes to many dangers and has made us very aware of many paramaters that could affect both the skipper and crew, i would call that better safety at sea and therefore better skippers and crew

Like what? Enlighten us

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[PeterM]

Originally Posted by biffer

Like what? Enlighten us

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I'm guessing things like ...and wait to be shocked....

Boat Speed
wave size
helming style
seating position & layout
Posture

So , like Biff , call me cynical ,but all the things your think about anyway ?

If there are some 'gems' of info out out there please just tell us instead of just alluding to them ?

[Leapy]

[C2 RIBS]

Interesting that everyone who attends gains out of inputs. I agree that most is common sense but the legislation is what I did not know .
Operationally I see little change but briefings will Change and those who work for me will be additionally trained.
My view as a business is that knowing legislation will help me protect me, crew and clients.
We all hope no ones becomes part of any claim or accident enq, but if this happens those who have legislation knowledge will I hope be able to show we considered and took actions.

[passbhoy]

Guys as cynics its not up to me to "convert" you, but as an organisation 45 of us attended and found it very worthwhile, the only way you will find something that may help you is to attend the course for yourself and quiz the experts on any issues you have on WBV.

[PeterM]

Having worked for the original thread starter and discussed it at length with him and others I agree this always need to be a major consideration, however I think I fall into the camp of it should really already be part of what anyone thinks when they take a commercial (or any) boat out .

As I work in both the medical & liability insurance fields I am very familiar with the claims culture this stuff can leads. There is however some great case law around how the risk of doing anything should not outweigh the 'cultural benefit' of actually doing it. - or something like that.


Common sense does dictate that being rattled around for 10+ hours a day will give rise to problems of one kind or another. We do what we can to minimise the problems for crew and passengers. While I am sure there are 'gems' of info you seem reluctant to give any that we may all have an ' oh I understand now' moment - this is surely what we would all look for and benefit from.

The measurements as I understand have not been ( un until now ) considered for a marine enviroment & when they have it its been clear we smash through the limits in seconds.

When you consider what can be done to help - for example seats..if when you need to have shock mitigating seating you are not actually better off stood up I'd be stunned. What do we all do when it gets rough ? ....Slow down & or stand up I expect is everyones answer. Unless of course you are strapped to shock mitigating seat...

If all fast boats had to be equipped with such ( due to some bit of legislation) then there wont be any boats going out there at all as its just not cost effective. Of course these aren't shock removing ...its just mitigation... the shock etc is still there just better controlled & still has the potential to hurt/ injure. So where do we go when someone is strapped in but still hurts themself ? Sue the seat manufacturer ....its just an endless cycle.

What 'we' do carries an inherant risk, it is in my view as simple as that...am I cynic or realist ? maybe a bit of both ?