Advice sought from experienced commercials and instructors.

[DGR]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

As a skipper, I personally carry the Instructors 3rd Party Liability insurance, which is designed for exactly this purpose. If you agree to skipper a charter boat in good faith, something goes wrong, and it turns out the boat was uninsured/didn't meet coding requirements, then and only then, does this fall back insurance come into play, to ensure that you are not personally liable.

Just to clarify - if you take a boat out as skipper and something goes wrong and you aren't insured or the boat didn't meet coding requirements - I don't think any insurance will cover you. If you don't check the boat properly, your insurance company are likely to accuse you of negligence - and you won't be covered - and more importantly, as the responsible person on board you WILL be liable.

It's your responsibility to check that the boat is suitably equipped and either your insurance (best), or theirs (less good), covers you.

From memory, for own boat tuition the RYA has a minimum list of equipment that should be onboard the boat that you are teaching on. If it ain't there - the advice I was given was to take them to the chandlers and get them to buy the kit as part of the course!! Safety is an integral part of the course - so it's kind of an anathema to do a course on a poorly equipped boat.

D...

[alant1]

"As a skipper, I personally carry the Instructors 3rd Party Liability insurance, which is designed for exactly this purpose."

Am I correct in assuming that this is NOT the RYA sponsored Skippers Liability Insurance, since this will only apply IF you are already covered buy the schools 'in force' insurance ( & this will only cover an instructor IF you are running a specific RYA course!).

[peterb]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

That sound a bit pricey, I would go back to them and point out what your turnover is and place some limits on the policy ie number of days

Doug, I have today been back to Heath Lambert. They are going to ask the underwriters for a new quote with a maximum number of days etc, but the sales guy said "to be honest I have never known a quote of this nature for less than £350". So I am not holding my breath!

Is there another insurance company I could try other than Heath Lambert?

At the end of the day if I have to pay £350 then I have to pay it - but I would like to have a "competitive quote".

[Doug Stormforce]

Peter

Check your PM,

[Gordon]

Just been quoted £1360 for third party liability for £5m and Employers Liability Insurance as well (as my Company is Ltd). This covers me for all activities worldwide except USA and Canada and enables me to employer two other people as employees.

Bit daft really as I am a one man band....!

Any suggestions for other insurance providers gratefully welcomed...!

Did your PM as above suggest someone (would appreciate a point in teh right direction)..

Cheers to all,

Gordon...

[hobbit555]

Originally Posted by peterb

Just received my Quotation from Heath Lambert.

They are quoting for the following:-

a) RYA syllabus training
b) Own boat tuition
c) Corporate Days
d) Boat delivery. (I didnt ask for this but they said it made no difference to the policy).

With an indemnity limit of £3M, the annual policy is £367.50.

Anyone got any comments? Expensive? Fair and reasonable??

My first reaction was "ouch" - but on reflection, its £30 each month out of my earnings. Not too bad.

this seems very cheap.

Last year I payed in excess of 2k as a freelance skipper

Without going back to the paper work, cover included 3rd party and professional indeminity to 2million per claim.

activities covered included
declared deliveries
uk waters operations
Instruction
working on private boats
all up to 24 metres.

I seem to remember a speed limit of the vessel at 20knots

Damian

[peterb]

Blimey Hobbit - you dug that one up from a while ago!

Those were the figures I got from Heath Lambert. The only thing that I can remember in the discussions was that I did try and impress on them that my "turnover" in non-RYA stuff was likely to be tiny. (5 grand or less - from memory).

[alant1]

Originally Posted by Paul Glatzel

Peter & James



Agree with this.



There is no requirement from the RYA for a disclaimer from the Skipper to be signed however my feeling - and what I recommend to Centres at Inspections - is that the Terms under which Own Boat Tuition is carried out is enshrined within the Schools Terms & Conditions of Booking. Within my own T&Cs we state

".Own boat tuition. Tuition is provided on the following basis:
• The vessel is insured by the owner for loss, damage and legal liability to third parties
• The owner remains the skipper and legally responsible for the safe management of the vessel at all times (including when under tuition) and will not hold the Instructor responsible for any loss or damage.
• The owner undertakes to secure the consent of the insurers to this agreement"

These are not RYA recommended words but do address the recommendations with RYA literature on the subject.

Many misunderstandings can be prevented by a well drafted set of T&Cs available pre booking which then form part of the subsequent contract.

As an aside i've read a couple of insurance policies where it states that the craft is uninsured when someone in the marine trade is on board. Logically this could be argued an Instructor being on board would invalidate a crafts insurance unless the insurers consented.



As a commercial Skipper then I think that you will need to take a view but I don't believe that the RYA Coaches Indemnity Insurance in any way covers you for this. Asking to see the ships documents is entirely reasonable. Coded boats are very obvious as they (should) carry lots of kit, they should have a copy of the coding certificate on board, have a tax disc type coding certificate and would often carry a copy of the certificate. A briefing to you the skipper at the time you take responsibility is something that should happen as a matter of course from the Owner/Managing Agent. If you don't get it or don't have a good feeling then walk away as it will be you dealing with the aftermath of an incident.

Another area to consider is deliveries. It never ceases to amaze me how many deliveries occur with no contract in place and thus arguably some potential for misunderstanding re liability in the event of an incident. We insist all deliveries are under a contract which we have based around a BMF Charter contract the key aspect of which is that the owner carries the insurance risk and indemnifies the company. How many deliveries do this though?



Jim, perhaps I misunderstand what you mean but you imply that the Heath Lambert RYA Coaches Insurance Indemnity covers you for work as a Skipper when on charter. I cannot check this now but am 99.9% certain that it doesn't and that the policy wording stipulates that it only covers you when working for a RYA Training Centre on RYA Courses therefore charter would not be covered.

Hope this helps

Regards

Paul

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I have some issues with this insurance.

Why is it needed? Belt & braces they told me. However, if you have to claim under this policy, it suggests that the schools policy will not pay out or has withdrawn cover. Since you HAVE to be covered by the school insurance, will this technicality stop any cover under this policy? I asked the question & their underwriters could not give an answer.

Check, the wording on 'terms & conditions' which you have to ask them for, this is different to the wording on the proposal form (which is the only bit of paper most read). So, which one does the insurance company use, should the 'sh-t hit the fan'?

Also, you are ONLY covered I think, for 'gross negligence'.
This term means that you have deliberately done something to cause the loss or injury.

You are certainly not covered for work outside an RYA Sea School & this means specifically RYA Courses, not simply own boat tuition.

[Gordon]

It is incredibly difficult to get public liability insurance at a cost effective price for freelance Skippers. I'm having trouble finding anything less than around £1,000 as a quote and this is for less than £5k per annum turnover.

There seems to be a very big gap in the market for Skippers who carry out deliveries and then (as an example) sell on empty berths for those who wish to participate in the trip (even if that is just to cover shared expenses).

Problems arise when, for example, a Skipper charters a watercraft for the purpose of then selling berths on for a trip and wishes to have public liability cover in case of accidents to those who have either purchased his or her services as Skipper and are effectively paying guests.

If anyone knows of such an insurance policy it woudl be helpful if you could let me know so I can compare costs.

Gordon...

[alant1]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

Like many centres we insuit that all freelance skippers and instructor carry their own insurance.

Let me give you an example of why.

We have a full public liability, employers liability and individual insuarnace on each boat, building etc.

If I hired a rigging company to do some work aloft on our yacht and he fell who would the claim be made against. Clearly not us, he has been contracted in to do a job and he should be suitable skilled to do his job.

If therefore I hire a self employed instructor to do a job, my insurance company would say his insurnace should cover any accident not mine.

Now if a customer was involved they would claim aganist me and my policy as they have a contract with me not the freelance self employed instructor. My insurance company would in turn claim against the instructors insurance.

I think that the point a lot of freelancers miss is that they are effectivly a business in their own right and as such have to take certain precautions such as agreeing contracts with customers (training centres) and being covered by insurance.

The flip side of this is that all of our employed staff are fully covered by the centres policy, they are part of the business. I think insurance is one of the important differences between self employed and employed instructors.

I have discussed this with Heath Lambert (our current insureres) and Admiral (insured the centre I used to run) and they both came back with self employed skippers need to cover themselves seperatly.

Casting my mind back to my own freelance days, I always felt that the RYA insurance was not enough, back then it coverd you while teaching an RYA course at a RYA centre. What then if you are teaching a non RYA course at a RYA centre or you are cororate skippering for a charter company or underatking some non RYA tuition for a private owner, all of these situations came outside of the scope ogf the RYA coaches indemnity.

Unless this has changed I would suggest to freelance skippers/instructors that they need to take out a public liability to cover all of these risks or at very least raise these sort of quastions with your insurance company, as always make sure the answers come back in writing not by telephone.

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"If I hired a rigging company to do some work aloft on our yacht and he fell who would the claim be made against. Clearly not us, he has been contracted in to do a job and he should be suitable skilled to do his job."

If only insurance was that clear cut!

When we have Ambulance men, who slipped on an icy drive, when attending a 999 call, claiming against the occupant who was ill & had called them out, where exactly does the responsibility lay? Are they not 'skilled' enough to cope with situations like this, without resorting to a claim against the householder? Why isn't the claim covered by their employers insurance?

Insurers seem to pick & choose what they should or should not, cover.

[Gordon]

Well, after much wailing and gnashing of teeth, I have finally found a broker and policy who has got me covered for this year...and a fantastic job he has done as well - it was soul destroying consistently hearing "we can't cover you..."! or "we don't do that..."


£1275 for £5m public liability for the whole of the world except the USA and Canada based on a less than £5k turnover per annum which realistically is all I usually earn from the activities below - most of the teaching is PAYE through RYA Centres.

This includes :-

Period:
12 months at date to be arranged

Business:
Skippered Yacht Charter, Yacht & Rib, Powercraft delivery & skippered racing

Interest:
Legal Liability As Defined In the Policy/Certificate

Sums Insured:
Limits Of Liability

Section 1 Employers Liability
Not Insured

Section 2 Public Liability
£5,000,000 any one occurrence/unlimited
Based on Turnover of £3,000 - £4,000

Section 3 Products Liability (claims made basis)
£5,000,000 any one period of insurance

Territorial Limits:
Worldwide, excluding USA/Canada

Jurisdiction:
Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Isle of Man, Channel Islands


This covers me for power and sail, delivery and charter (Skippered or Bareboat) and selling berths on chartered yachts or having paying guests of any description on board during deliveries (as I don't employ crew otherwise add another £1,000 for employers liability).

My RYA tuition work is is covered by RYA Centres and enhanced with the Heath Lambert's RYA Coaches scheme...


Does this policy work - YES

Does it cover what I do - YES

Is it painful paying this premium - OF COURSE but better safe than sorry...!

Further information available if any of the freelance crowd amongst you are interested - PM me or get in touch via the website...

Regards,

Gordon...

[Doug Stormforce]

Gordon

Well done, I know you have been on the case for this for some time. I cant help thinking however that he insurance company is being a bit greedy here. They are after more than 25% of your pre tax turnover, for what is esentailly minimal risk/amount of activity.

[peterb]

Sadly, we get more like the US of A every day.......

But well done Gordon, even though I doubt there is another industry where the insurance premium equals 25.5% of the annual sales.

[Gordon]

I know, I know...but better safe than sorry....

My requirements for the policy were that :-

This policy covers any claim made by a third party to the value of a maximum of £5,000,000.

This policy covers any claim made by a third party where that third party has paid or has contracted his services as Skipper undertaking yacht or powerboat cruising and / or yacht racing.

This policy covers any claim made by a third party where the third party are the owner of the water craft and have purchased services either as Skipper undertaking cruising or yacht racing.

This policy covers any claim made by a third party where the third party are the owner of the water craft and have purchased services or have commissioned services to deliver a watercraft from and to designated ports or destinations either by sea, inland waterway or by road.

That this policy covers a chartered a water craft from any third party for the purposes of providing or selling services as Skipper undertaking yacht or powerboat cruising and / or yacht racing as described in points 1 and 2 above.

That this policy covers any activity as described above in points 1 to 5 whether in the UK, Europe and all other areas and countries excluding the USA and Canada.

...so quite a comprehensive cover...

..but expensive....

[Gordon]

...and of course it does mean I can drive, deliver by sea, road or inland waterway, ANY watercraft (for which I am licensed - RYA / MCA YM etc etc) regardless of value and anywhere in the world which is, of course, a huge advantage to me as I trot between the Med and the UK etc etc...

It does also let me get into 'untapped' markets where such work is usually covered by 'in house' or employed staff rahter than getting in outsiders...

...but painfully expensive...!

[peterb]

Well good luck anyway Gordon and well done for persisting and getting the cover.

[Limey Linda]

I would take my 1275 pounds and spend it down the pub. Much better value for money.

[Gordon]

If anyone wants details - send me a PM or email through the website - happy to share the info...

Gordon...