250mm freeboard

[Tony Barber]

Hi,

I am in the process of getting my rib coded. My rib is apx 1997 (pre XL shaft) therefore has a cutout in the transom for the engine. The surveyor has mentioned the 250mm requirement, unless I want to go for cat 6, where it is not a problem.

I notice that Rogue Wave, you mentioned that you were having a similar problem but that the surveyor changed his mind in the end.

Can anyone clarify what the situation is? Surely their must be plenty of pre XL shaft ribs out there that are coded for cat 4 or 5 and have therefore come across this problem.

Thanks,

Tony.

[codprawn]

What about ribs without a transom - ocean dynamics make some like this so water can just pour out of the back!!!

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Tony Barber

Hi,

I am in the process of getting my rib coded. My rib is apx 1997 (pre XL shaft) therefore has a cutout in the transom for the engine. The surveyor has mentioned the 250mm requirement, unless I want to go for cat 6, where it is not a problem. Tony.

Just to rub the salt in, they will also measure how high the transom is and calculate how much water could be trapped inside the boat by the high transom so a high transom counts against you.

My surveyor took a common sence approach to my requirement which was also short of the 250 mm requirement. It was based on the boat not being loaded to anything like its full capacity, operating only in daylight and 20 miles from safe haven (Cat 4) and subsantial self bailers fitted incase it did go pear shaped.

I would speak with your surveyor first and ask him what he recommends, let him ponder over the solution.

Pete

[quinquarimarine]

Firstly you say pre 1997 - xl shaft. Sorry but this is lost on me as xl was here many years ago pre 1997.

Secondly the 250mm is there for a good reason. In the case of a vessel with total loss of propulsion then the min freeboard and transom will ensure a dry sitauation for all....relative to the required pumping ( please study downflooding etc). It is in the new harmonised codes and if someone can gain dispensation then it should never be be for CAT4 (20 miles) IMOP.

Last your suggestion of a 5m boat for CAT 4. Sorry to say ( and whether the MCA or others agree) ... what a joke.

Yes the boat may cope with B waters (and be RCD for such) but it cannot support all systems required for the survival of passengers in a "situation".

Cheers

John
www.quinquari.co.uk

[Tony Barber]

Originally Posted by quinquarimarine

Firstly you say pre 1997 - xl shaft. Sorry but this is lost on me as xl was here many years ago pre 1997.

You may well be right. The reason I mentioned it is because Ribcraft informed me that when my boat was manufactured XL shaft engines were not freely available in 135hp (which is what it originally had on it), hence the requirement for a section to be cut out of the transom. I understand that this is not now the case, therefore a new 585 would not have the cutout, but maybe the dates are wrong?

Originally Posted by quinquarimarine

Last your suggestion of a 5m boat for CAT 4. Sorry to say ( and whether the MCA or others agree) ... what a joke.
Yes the boat may cope with B waters (and be RCD for such) but it cannot support all systems required for the survival of passengers in a "situation".

Sorry, I'm not sure what RCD means? However, I'm sure there are other ribs around the 6m mark that are coded for cat 4. Whether or not you would actually go 20 miles with paying passengers on board is another matter. However (and I may be wrong here) cat 5 & 6 don't give as much flexibility as I would like. The reason for getting the boat coded is because I have started to instruct RYA PB courses. There is a big jump from 3 to 20 miles and the NDP makes working around the country difficult. The boat does not need to be coded for PB courses, however you are restricted to 3 miles from your base. In good weather I don’t see what’s wrong with a passage that will take you more than 3 miles from land, if you are confident in the boat and the students abilities. It gives them more experience under supervision and certainly makes the course more enjoyable. By the way, the boat was red coded under the old system.

Tony.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by quinquarimarine

Yes the boat may cope with B waters (and be RCD for such) but it cannot support all systems required for the survival of passengers in a "situation". Cheers John
www.quinquari.co.uk

John, its a 5.85 Ribcraft for use in Cat 4, thats daylight favourable weather conditions. I wouldn't have thought this would be a problem with a 4/5 person limit, although stowing all the kit and liferaft might be chanllenging.

Tont, 2 thoughts, build a splash well inside the transom, allowing room for the engine to trim up or fit a jack plate so the transom can be raised.

Pete

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by quinquarimarine

Firstly you say pre 1997 - xl shaft. Sorry but this is lost on me as xl was here many years ago pre 1997.

Secondly the 250mm is there for a good reason. In the case of a vessel with total loss of propulsion then the min freeboard and transom will ensure a dry sitauation for all....relative to the required pumping ( please study downflooding etc). It is in the new harmonised codes and if someone can gain dispensation then it should never be be for CAT4 (20 miles) IMOP.

Last your suggestion of a 5m boat for CAT 4. Sorry to say ( and whether the MCA or others agree) ... what a joke.

Yes the boat may cope with B waters (and be RCD for such) but it cannot support all systems required for the survival of passengers in a "situation".

Cheers

John
www.quinquari.co.uk

Does this mean that the old Thousand Island boats with NO transom would be impossible to code then??? I thought they were VERY impressive!!!

In fact they STILL make workboats with no transom

http://www.ribworker.com/9metre.htm

Surely they must be coded boats???

[quinquarimarine]

Pete, Tony & Cod

Fair points all round.

Tony the fact that you were told that an xl was not available in the 135 was probably due to supply and as you did not require a coded vessel at the time was acceptable. However this is not mitigation.

Pete. A 5.85 RC was not what I wrote about. I was thinking along the lines of a 5m. My general policy is 6m and above is OK, less than that is borderline but do remember that this is my own personal ethos. I recently came across a 6m coded for 12 pax plus 2 for CAT 3..... that does make me cross.

A 6ish m for a limited pax in CAT 4 is OK esp if for training work. If for general passenger a 6m for 20 miles is not the job. I would advise a min of 8.5m and that is from practical experience ie. not for sales.

CodP. Yes OD built a cracking boat for the right application. In this case the transom does in effect not exist ie. it can not trap any water and due to the wl/deck level creates no risk of static flooding.

Cheers

John
www.quinquari.co.uk

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by quinquarimarine

Pete, Tony & Cod

CodP. Yes OD built a cracking boat for the right application. In this case the transom does in effect not exist ie. it can not trap any water and due to the wl/deck level creates no risk of static flooding.

Cheers

John
www.quinquari.co.uk

See what you mean - the deck level is quite "high and dry" - I suppose it would get pretty miserable for the passengers being constantly wet!!!

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by quinquarimarine

Pete. A 5.85 RC was not what I wrote about. I was thinking along the lines of a 5m. My general policy is 6m and above is OK, less than that is borderline but do remember that this is my own personal ethos. I recently came across a 6m coded for 12 pax plus 2 for CAT 3..... that does make me cross.

Someone is taking the mick, 14 people on a 6m rib for cat 3, that would annoy me too, although the MCA are not beyond bending there own rules to suit there own purposes.

A 6ish m for a limited pax in CAT 4 is OK esp if for training work.

Given the size and kit fitted to some of the training boats I see in the Solent (they are not members of Ribnet) I think Tonys approach to going the extra bit and having the boat coded very laudable.

Pete

[channel]

Notice a couple of comments about under 6m RIB's being coded for Cat 4 . . . . I know of 2 Ribcraft 5.85's that are coded for Cat 3.

Regards
Chris

[Doug Stormforce]

We used to have an Atlantic 6.7m (open transom) coded for Cat 4, 8 pax. Although iN reality we did not run with 8 on board.

When she was inspected I asked the surveyrer what the deal was with the open transom re coding, he said no problem and I obviously did not argue.

It seams to me like m,ay things its open to different interpretation or discresion by different surveyors.

[ALANT]

I run a 7.3 it has a second transom to get over the problem of the 250mm rule as yet the water has never come over.
Static flooding it would have to be pretty bad for this to happen, remember I operate in the north sea, if the sea is looks bad I stay in the harbour- more than can be said for someone with a plus 8.5 metre boat who can't because of large overheads! In this case it come down to money not seaman ship.
Before the large operator arrived people had sensible sized boats.

[DGR]

Originally Posted by channel

Notice a couple of comments about under 6m RIB's being coded for Cat 4 . . . . I know of 2 Ribcraft 5.85's that are coded for Cat 3.

Regards
Chris

I don't know how they get through the coding checks/survey - Cat 3 needs a substantial enclosure to protect against the elements - not sure how you'd do that with anything but a cabin RIB. It does happen though - I've seen several adverts for Cat 3 RIBs that don't have any cover on them, unless they are using some sort of pullover cover, which I (personally) don't believe is good enough.

I thought the harmonised codes would sort out these issues - I think it's quite clear what is expected - but there still seems to be lots of room for interpretation!!

D...

[channel]

It did come as a suprise to me. I'm currently coding my Ribcraft 585 and came across 3 other 585's that have cat 3. 2 have no restriction and one is restricted to 3 miles in dark. There are quite a lot of discrepancies with larger boats too, I often work steel tugs/workboats and come across quite a few things that don't add up!!

I'm currently trying to sort the transom height without loosing the well for the water from the deck to drain into. Did speak to Ribcraft about this but they didn't seem very interested in helping which is a shame as I will be looking for a 6-7m RIB next year . . .

Soon to come we have the job of finding somewhere for all the other safety gear to go! I wouldn't want to code anything much smaller, although I do know of a Ribcraft 4.8 that is coded for Cat 4.

I think a lot depends on the surveyor you have, each one seems to have a different take on the rules.

Chris

[DGR]

Originally Posted by channel

I'm currently trying to sort the transom height without loosing the well for the water from the deck to drain into. Did speak to Ribcraft about this but they didn't seem very interested in helping which is a shame as I will be looking for a 6-7m RIB next year . . .

That's strange - they were really helpful when I was doing mine. They run a type certification scheme for some of their boats through MECAL - who are also very helpful - which basically made it quite a bit less expensive (was going to say cheaper - but no... ...).

Thinking about it, I thought that transom height referred to the height from the waterline up to the top of the transom (i.e. outside the boat), so the well inside the boat shouldn't make any difference.

[channel]

From what I have been told you are allowed to allow water to enter a transom well and providing it doesn't enter the boat it is acceptable. Again it depends how each surveyor reads into it from what I can gather. I know of a Ribcraft 5.85 that has the same transom as mine and it wasn't even noted to be a problem by their surveyor.

Some boats have got around the problem with a hypalon skirt I understand ?

Personally I'd rather leave all alone with the transom set up, I see no real problem with the way it is. The best RIB I have ever worked was a ex RNLI Atlantic 21 with the open stern. Yes it flooded when you went astern but it didn't half empty quickly when you gave her a kick ahead!! However to et the coding through I'm going to have to alter it :-(