Sunk costa

[biffer]

Two things go through my mind.
1. If it keeps moving why haven't they chained it to the rocks
2. The Dutch who know about salvage could be on the boat getting the fuel off at the same time

A good salvage team could have gone through that boat by now and it will need to be secure anyway for pumping out all that fuel as it will alter the weight

sent from a remote device

[Steve_B]

Originally Posted by PeterM

Was an interesting discussion on Radio 2 yesterday about this & how the captain ( rightly or wrongly) is having trail by media & was getting the full blame from the CG even while he was in a lifeboat.

An interesting ( for me) comaprison was made to airline accidents where its not about ' blame' but understanding reasons and avoiding it again and how on a very complex bit of kit its near impossible for one person to be 100% responsible. As there are, in this case, lots of other bridge crew who have a responsibility to constantly question & challenge actions and decisions it does seem odd that this guy is 'guilty' already.

Dont get me wrong it may well be down to him, but again it may not....

And I agree strongly, but even now in some countries blame is levelled in aviation incidents before the investigation(not right but happens).
My intererest/concern is that given what we "know" about modern ship design and the incident details, no-one should have been lost (unless of course in the immediate area of the flooding at the time) and ultimately, the ship should not have attempted to turned turtle.

[PeterM]

Originally Posted by biffer

Two things go through my mind.
1. If it keeps moving why haven't they chained it to the rocks
2. The Dutch who know about salvage could be on the boat getting the fuel off at the same time

A good salvage team could have gone through that boat by now and it will need to be secure anyway for pumping out all that fuel as it will alter the weight

sent from a remote device

I wonder if the delay is they are into the £££ discussion of salvage or scrap it & who will pay for it all.

I'd love to see the underwater topography of the ledge its on. I agree to secure it properly would be the simplest/safest thing.

[biffer]

Better to pump all that diesel out than clean it up. You might be right about the money. But the Dutch salvage team are already there. The local army divers are not up to the job

sent from a remote device

[Ian M]

Originally Posted by biffer

The local army divers are not up to the job

Well said that man I have paid good money to dive in far worse conditions The Mrs keeps accusing me, me, of having a rant. "So bad we are having to lay lines out" - standard practice for any wreck penetration etc. etc.

[mister p]

"or one of these huge lifting cranes be used to try and correct the angle? "

Exactly how big are these cranes and how do they get about?

[steadyeddie]

the svanen can lift 8500 tons and steams at 7 knots ,biggest sheerleg barge in europe

[m chappelow]

Originally Posted by biffer

Better to pump all that diesel out than clean it up. You might be right about the money. But the Dutch salvage team are already there. The local army divers are not up to the job

sent from a remote device

Don't forget for those that dont know the diesel fuels not the same as vehicle diesel but is of the heavy oil type and needs to be heated up first before it can be Pumped out though the salvors will have to rig up some sort of steam lines first so it's not going to be an over night job

[Bigmuz7]

Originally Posted by m chappelow

Don't forget for those that dont know the diesel fuels not the same as vehicle diesel but is of the heavy oil type and needs to be heated up first before it can be Pumped out though the salvors will have to rig up some sort of steam lines first so it's not going to be an over night job

The V5 for one of my trucks used to say 'heavy oil' as the fuel category ..I just assumed that meant diesel ... whats the difference ?

[m chappelow]

Originally Posted by Bigmuz7

The V5 for one of my trucks used to say 'heavy oil' as the fuel category ..I just assumed that meant diesel ... whats the difference ?

Ship fuel is nearly like crude oil tar like and has to be heated up first to thin it out then it usually goes through massive centrifugal filters before its clean and thin enough to go into the engine,
It will pump out but it's a slow process maybe quicker over there as its a warmer country ,
Forget now but think normal truck/car and domestic heating diesels oils about 2000 spec grade where as ship stuffs about 300 no doubt someone will tell us .

[spartacus]

Originally Posted by biffer

Two things go through my mind.
1. If it keeps moving why haven't they chained it to the rocks
2. The Dutch who know about salvage could be on the boat getting the fuel off at the same time

A good salvage team could have gone through that boat by now and it will need to be secure anyway for pumping out all that fuel as it will alter the weight

sent from a remote device

Same thing crossed my mind. The owners (Carnival Corporation - a American/British (plc) company who own Costa, Cunard, Holland America, etc) aren't short of a bob or two... so money isn't the issue. Also their PR machine has gone into over-drive this week as the death-toll rises and they try to distance themselves from the Captain.

The Dutch salvage company SMIT are already involved - after sub-contracting the fuel disposal to an Italian company Neri. Could be they're simply better placed due to logistics, or some quirk of Italian jurisdiction, who knows?

Part of me feels they (owners/authorities) are simply not throwing enough resource at the situation, however this is purely a lay perspective on my part, so it could be they're doing everything physically possible, given the situation as it unfolds.

More details here: SMIT SMIT'S WORLD
Neri ::Neri Group::

[creeg]

I was amazed and very disappointed in how quickly the company blamed the captain. I was taking to my mate (pilot) yesterday about it and he was saying that the same thing happens in the airline industry, in the event of an accident the airline will always try and blame human error as the maximum compensation payout is limited to £500k per person, if the airline is guilty it's unlimited.

There would also be the cost of reviewing and retro fitting any safety findings into the fleet, not to mention the potential drop in passenger revenue.

Wondering if the same is applicable to the cruise companies and that now the captain is apparently starting to accept some responsibility there has been some negotiation between the captain and the company re: compensation for being the fall guy.

[mister p]

I wish REUTERS had a report on the whole event.

[Anchorhandler]

Just a few points to add to this which may help explain a few things.

There seems to be a fascination with the ship capsizing.....as i mentioned previously, it would have been highly (and i mean highly) unlikely she would of capsized, to understand why, think of her laying on her side fully submerged under the water...now all the heavy components and machinery fitted to this vessel are deliberately installed on or below the normal waterline. With a normal draught of 9 meters or so 70% of the mass of the vessel is installed in only one tenth of the overall height from keel to uppermost deck. Now, thinking back to the vessel on its side and submerged...which way is it natuyrsally going to sink? Everything you see above the waterline of a cruise ship is made up of big empty spaces. (cabins, cinema's, receptions etc... These empty spaces weigh nothing in comparisson to the machinery and steelwork installed lower down. A lot of modern cruise ships have a superstructure made of aluminium too so would not be surprised if the concordia was the same. She is lying on her side due to the fact that she started sinking down in the water and followed the profile of the rocks underneath.

Attaching the vessel to the rocks is not as easy and straightforward as you may think, What are you going to use as anchor points?...anchors?...how do you get 5-10t anchors onto the rocks and position them in a way that they will hold? Further more, you have the problem of finding suitable fixing points on the vessel that will take the strain. Not sure what her deadweight was but probably circa 70000t so imagine the weight that would slowly need to be taken to stop her slipping. You would have to pass the chains through or obove the passenger decks and weld suitable strengthening onto the lower sections of the exposed hull. From a time frame point of view, its just not practcal to try anything like that.
At best if the depth of water is enough you could possibly get a couple of the salvage tugs to keep pushing up on the hull untill a plan is put into place to pump out the fuel oil.

IMHO she is a total loss and will be cut up in place. She will be insured using what is called a "P&I club" arrangment where several ship owners/companies contribute to a central pot. It is these shipping companies that will feel the hit as the 'pot' will take a huge battering because of this and will need refilling (thanks to increased contributions from each shipping company members)

The fuel in her bunker tanks can be pumped without two much hassle, it just requires the right type of pumping equipment. Fuel oil only needs heating to reduce its viscosity in order to filter it and pass it through the engines fuel pumps. (which have a very fine tolerance). Simply pumping fuel oil for the sake of transfering it is relatively straight forward.

Anyway, hope this helps with understanding a bit more about how such vessels work.

Simon

[C-NUMB]

Originally Posted by creeg

I was amazed and very disappointed in how quickly the company blamed the captain. I was taking to my mate (pilot) yesterday about it and he was saying that the same thing happens in the airline industry, in the event of an accident the airline will always try and blame human error as the maximum compensation payout is limited to £500k per person, if the airline is guilty it's unlimited.

There would also be the cost of reviewing and retro fitting any safety findings into the fleet, not to mention the potential drop in passenger revenue.

Wondering if the same is applicable to the cruise companies and that now the captain is apparently starting to accept some responsibility there has been some negotiation between the captain and the company re: compensation for being the fall guy.

Spot on. I guess that one of the outcome from the investigations to come, will be issues with the safety culture on board the vessel. And in today's world, that means not only blames on the Master but also on owners top rank management. That means that some of owners management might, in a worst case scenario, will serve hard time.....

So would not be surprised if some "negotiations" have taken place between owners and master in mutual "understanding" to focus the blame on master, saving other management.
Speculation only but who knows.

So far have not seen much information that makes me feel any sympathy for the master, the more details relieved, the more shocking it all seams. The only sensible thing he seams to be doing that night was to beach the ship close to shore.

Her a interesting simulation, no idea how this compares to the truth. The whole "show of "is totally a nut heads action, and doing so with such a steep angel is even more stupid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8OzTNaSaFU

[hobbit555]

Salvage!!! as others have said smit are looking at the job. Having worked with smit on the Napoli salvage/ wreck removal it takes a great deal of time to carry out a salvage job. Mobilising equipment takes time and the biggest cranes are never just sitting waiting for the next cruise ship to capsize.
Ships a built to float. once you put them on the bottom all stability calculations go out the window.
A possible reason for her tipping over is that as she was beached, using bow thruster the lower hull stopped and the momentum of the top sides continued towards the shore. The resulting heel of the vessel then caused the water with in the vessel following the grounding the. Was able to move across to the starboard side of the vessel resulting in capsize. Had she not been on the bottom I think the vessel would have completely turned over.
Therefore naval architects and salvage engineers are working on different scenarios to salvage the vessel. As far as i am aware Nothing this large has been par buckled upright and refloated. Would be amazing if this was done but I think. But costs would be prohibitive. Next option wreck removal which is very messy, pollution etc.

[Ian M]

The news is now saying that the operators knew all about the coast hugging course, it had been followed many times before, and it was encouraged for publicity purposes. Definately more to this than reported to date.

[bcervelo]

Reuters are running live video of the salvage operation to right the ship.
Raising the Costa Concordia | Reuters.com

A few RIB's floating about too.

[Into The Blue]

Painfully slow but compelling to watch

[Into The Blue]

This is an animation of how it should work
Così verrà messa in sicurezza la Concordia - Animazione - Repubblica Tv - la Repubblica.it