Anti 4x4 Brigade

[Tideway]

Originally Posted by codprawn

But you can't even say "generally" - that's the argument Greenpeace etc are using.

What is a 4x4 anyway? Most of the Jap stuff is part time 4wd - it is only in RWD on the road!!!

Freelanders and CRVs etc are not real 4x4s in my opinion - they are CARS - alright maybe they have drive to other wheels at times but they weigh the same as cars - they drive like cars - and they offroad like cars!!!

Codpawn,
Good point & Agreed. They ain't 4x4's and are nearly cars and you can exclude the Bravas and Hiluxs and commercial stuff as well, because they are generally used for a job of work.

Ok general is not specific. I drive a VW Golf TDI so 48 mpg in town, 60+ outside. I suspect that is broadly comparable with most mid size cars. I suspect that my broader point is being missed, but I can't think how to phrase it differently.

In my woolly, imprecise way though I was trying to raise the issue that do we need bloody great BMW, Merc, Cayennes etc that ape proper 4wds, plus those squeaky clean proper 4wds, to drive around in towns, only going into low range to mount the high kerb outside the primary school? (Note where I'm based!).

Jw,

Safety is an individual choice and so I won't dispute your point. My earlier comment stems from when I was a passenger in a L.R. when it hit a small Renault, the bumper went through the passenger window at head height. Luckily no-one in it, but if they had it would have been very nasty indeed. We'd all be fine if we all drove a standrad Euro box

nope I don't have specific data, but generally, (and as from the forums you seem very technically switched on, so please you must accept this!) 4wds are bigger, more mechanically complex, less fuel efficient, wear out items such as tyres quicker( and in London, clutches & gearboxes, or maybe it was just our LR!) if permanent 4wd. All of this requires more resources to build and supply, so they are less environmentally friendly then a Golf or a similar car, which doesn't need as much.

BUT don't think that I'm preaching. My car is still damaging and I didn't get a toyota prius or similar, because I like driving... I just think that the trend toward more and more of these large vehicles is pointless and wasteful.

I think that I shall now retire from this arguement somewhat battered and bruised... I shall stick to boats

cheers,

t

[Rogue Wave]

As the impoverished owner of a 3.0 litre turbo Hilux (less than 20 MPG) then I find this tax Viscous but fair.

I am not hypocritical enough to believe that people who burn fuel for fun (that would be us) truly care about the envoirenment or Global warming. It's a problem and we are contributing to it. i don't think it's unreasonable that my Surf gets to pay more road tax than a Smart car for example

BTW before any of you Pedants point out that the word Viscous refers to viscosity of a liquid I just though it was a good play on words. I don't know how to spell vicious and many other words cum tooo fink abowt it!

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

....

I am not hypocritical enough to believe that people who burn fuel for fun (that would be us) truly care about the envoirenment or Global warming. It's a problem and we are contributing to it. i don't think it's unreasonable that my Surf gets to pay more road tax than a Smart car for example

.....

Yup... I own *ahem* several fuel consuming devices that I use for pleasure.. Boat, Bike, Truck.(!)..... What I don't like is the lack of honesty with these tax increases... If "they" came out and said, "We're increasing tax on these large vehicles because we think you can afford it and we need the money to pay off our over-spending"….. Then fine... It's a fair cop Governor!
I also smell a bit of hypocrisy when people drone on about environmental damage caused by “Chelsea Tractors” and then complain about the cost of keeping their boat, their holiday flights and all the other luxury items that they have… wise up guys an’ gals… they all contribute to the environmental impact that man is having on the planet….

[Andy Stevens]

My truck (v8) does 12mpg, 15 if i am very careful. Thing is, i use it for work mainly, i need a big load space with 4x4. Now, its up to them what people drive but i cant help laugh when i see some litle lady in a Range Rover, without a bit of mud and road tyres, I just cant see the point really.

I'm happy driving my usual 4x4 all the time, 1.3cc Suzuki for the win (still only
does 25mpg though and gets the cheaper tax- dumb ass government)

[qcamel]

It is surely not about need but about choice. Many people who own 4x4 cars do not need them but they are nice to own and nice to travel in therefore they make a choice to buy one. Most cars are capable of breaking the speed limits on our motorways even 'greencars' we do not need to do this but again its choice to buy more powerful cars than required. Individual choice is what makes us individual.

If we take this to its natural conclusion we would all end up buying a bicycle and getting the bus for longer journies. Some world that would be.

The problem I see is that we are constantly being told how to live our lives and how to make decisions, this is not what makes a country great....

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Andy Stevens

.... but i cant help laugh when i see some litle lady in a Range Rover, without a bit of mud and road tyres, I just cant see the point really.

Well I don't. She likely has a good command of the road, armco in the doors, front and side airbag protection and a generally strong vehicle. Given that statistics suggest most accidents occur within a limited distance of one's home I feel she is entitled to the maximum protection she can give herself.

My one excursion away from largish vehicles was a Citroen. It had only one airbag, no lumbar seat adjustment, my knees contacted the back of the steering wheel when braking and it had very little internal padding as protection. If a front corner was lifted on the jack, the side doors would not open and close because of the bodywork flexing. Despite all this, and more, I quite liked the thing but I always felt vulnerable and I'm sure I would have been damaged in an accident of any severity.

[Simon B]

Good point qcamel, the thing that really got my goat about this tax malarky was the idea that our governemnt was basically window dressing again. The green lobby hasnt got what it wants here. And Phoney Crony has made a little more money from something that will happen anyway, whilst singly failing to look at the real issue of fuel use by people in Brittain.

One could argue that the average commercial gym should be closed on environmental grounds at least until all the equipment is hooked up to the national grid and that people driving there should vilified in public as hypocrites.

Now where's my ducking stool and fir cone? (I need a weather forecast)

[thorper]

Originally Posted by Andy Stevens

My truck (v8) does 12mpg, 15 if i am very careful. Thing is, i use it for work mainly, i need a big load space with 4x4. Now, its up to them what people drive but i cant help laugh when i see some litle lady in a Range Rover, without a bit of mud and road tyres, I just cant see the point really.

I agree! There is a lady in southsea that I see most days who uses a Chevy Suburban to do the school run!

Ricky

[qcamel]

Originally Posted by thorper

I agree! There is a lady in southsea that I see most days who uses a Chevy Suburban to do the school run!

Ricky

So what. With the tax, duty and VAT she has paid on that vehicle I think she has bought the right to do so. She is certainly adding to the tax revenue of the country and therefore if you believe our leaders making this country a better place to live. Do you think that all of us on this forum running our 'fuel efficient' and envirmonetaly conscious outboards can really preach from a position of strength?

[Andy Stevens]

People can do what they want, i dont dissagree with that, afterall, i am happy spunking £70 in petrol to piss about on the Solent. All I am saying is what a daft species we are when we go and spend 50 grand on a monster 4x4 to take the kids to school.

None so queer as folk.

[thorper]

Originally Posted by qcamel

So what. With the tax, duty and VAT she has paid on that vehicle I think she has bought the right to do so. She is certainly adding to the tax revenue of the country and therefore if you believe our leaders making this country a better place to live. Do you think that all of us on this forum running our 'fuel efficient' and envirmonetaly conscious outboards can really preach from a position of strength?

I dont deny her right to drive it. What I do object to is the space on the road it takes up driving down the street (bear in mind the narrow car-lined streets in southsea), the huge turning circle required when the roads are jammed with all the other school run cars, the air pollution put out from it, & the fact that if she does hit another car / pedestrian, they will be crushed due to the tank like nature of the vehicle.

Ricky

[Jimbob]

wonder when they will start taxing farts - especially when i have been for a curry..

[Nasher]

I enjoy my 4x4, and the extra each year to tax it is not going to put me off.
Particularly when you consider it’s only about the cost of ½ a tank of Diesel.

I do actually think it’s fair that if I choose to drive a vehicle that pollutes more I should pay the extra tax, just as I’ve chosen to pay extra to buy it in the first place. OK its unfortunate that its specified as 251 g/Km, but have made the choice and I stick by it. I’m even still hoping to move up to an Amazon later this year.

Perhaps it’s my indulgence to make up for all the other ‘Green’ stuff I do, like being over the top with recycling etc. And if anyone thinks that’s hypocritical, don’t bother telling me because I’m not listening.

Apart from anything else, it’s still cheaper for me to store my 6.25M Ocean away from the water, and tow it there myself, than pay marina or boatyard storage costs.

Nasher.

[Phil Davies]

Originally Posted by Andy Stevens

All I am saying is what a daft species we are when we go and spend 50 grand on a monster 4x4 to take the kids to school.

Agree Andy, particularly when it's done to 'keep up with the Joneses' and sod all to do with that worn out and spurious argument about safety. In the case of the Chelsea tractor brigade, it's nothing more than an image thing, period. And yes, by running a 4.4 ltr V8 Range Rover, 5ltr V8 TVR, V-Twin Ducati and 2/4-stroke outboards I'm an environmental disaster zone, but at least I admit it and accept other people's objections to the fact

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Phil Davies

.....sod all to do with that worn out and spurious argument about safety.

I suggest you visit a car breakers and view the carnage caused by road accidents. Take particular note of the dried blood puddles.

And yes, by running a 4.4 ltr V8 Range Rover, 5ltr V8 TVR, V-Twin Ducati and 2/4-stroke outboards I'm an environmental disaster zone, but at least I admit it and accept other people's objections to the fact

How very righteous of you.

[Phil Davies]

Originally Posted by jwalker

How very righteous of you.

Yes, I thought so

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by thorper

I dont deny her right to drive it. What I do object to is the space on the road it takes up driving down the street (bear in mind the narrow car-lined streets in southsea), the huge turning circle required when the roads are jammed with all the other school run cars, the air pollution put out from it, & the fact that if she does hit another car / pedestrian, they will be crushed due to the tank like nature of the vehicle.

Ricky

I object FAR more to the number of EMPTY buses on the road - only able to run because of huge subsidies we have to pay - the extra pollution they put out - the creation of special lanes for them which adds to congestion - and if THEY hit you it is far worse than ANY 4x4!!!

[Daniel TD5]

i don,t care drive what i want

4x4 are the best

any way my defender TD5 will go 100 more mile per Tank than the L200 i had before so i am now a greenie saving the world

Dan

[Jeff Pike]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Freelanders and CRVs etc are not real 4x4s in my opinion - they are CARS - alright maybe they have drive to other wheels at times but they weigh the same as cars - they drive like cars - and they offroad like cars!!!

Nothing wrong with a CRV Codders. The wifes is 4 years old, no squeeks or rattles, huge volume, takes all our scuba gear, gets us out the village in the winter & has managed to tow the boat - just don't trust it on a slipway. Hence the hunt for a Disco. Nice of Brown to cut my income a bit more though.

Originally Posted by codprawn

Also people assume that big engines are worse than small ones - not always the case - a subaru 2lL uses far more fuel than a TVR 4L - not on paper but in real life!!!

Depends how you drive it! I can get 36 out of my Saab on a good run & hit 16mpg when I'm eating 911's for breakfast. Depends who's driving - Jeckal or Hyde.

Originally Posted by qcamel

The problem I see is that we are constantly being told how to live our lives and how to make decisions, this is not what makes a country great....

Quite agree.

Originally Posted by Nasher

I enjoy my 4x4, and the extra each year to tax it is not going to put me off.

Exactly - 'Two faced Tone' & 'Read the small print Brown' have no interest in environmental issues. They've raised some more tax. Not enough to stop us buying & driving 4x4's but enough to help pay their pensions & help fill the black hole. Not going to say any more or I'll be into politics. Still - it will be a bit more next year in the name of saving the planet, and again the year after. Bit like adding 9p on fags each year to help your lungs - not that I smoke - but you can see where this new tax increase is going to go.

[Hightower]

For my pennys worth I think anyone has the right to drive anything they dam well want to! If you got the money that's great!

I firmly think that the Government are using issues like the anti-4x4 lobby and such like as an excuse to squeeze more money out of everybody and blaming it on enviromental issues.

Most 4x4's don't take up any more room than a full sized MPV or tranny van or even a large estate or saloon car.

They'll be charging everyone extra tax if ya got a Tow bar or roof box next.

Who voted these T**Ts in anyway......Bring back Boom and Bust .