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Old 18 March 2008, 14:01   #11
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Very sad indeed. Being involved with the SCC i wonder how it will effect us later.
There were so many errors made on that fatal trip.
Some basic L2 stuff like getting a decent forecast etc??
As for the "head count"??

Paul
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Old 18 March 2008, 17:20   #12
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This is indeed a very sad case and it seems a series of basic mistakes were made much seems to have been made that she was a child wearing an adult lifejacket, she was a 14 year old girl who may well have been of adult size and weight so was she the size of a child or an adult?

The helm had removed the Kill cord !!!

Then performed a what sounds like (at least to me sat in front of a pc) a reckless change of course to starboard perhaps it was a desperate situation and in the heat of the moment it was the only thing to do? I don't know it is easy sat in front of a pc.

How easy is it to deflate a life jacket? when you are suddenly flung into cold water, disorientated, shocked and probably in total darkness I would suggest that most people would panic, unless they had trained and practised deflating a life jacket in this situation.

I think that one thing that can be drawn from this situation is that there is no substitute from having proper training and practise.

I personally use a manual gas inflated life jacket so hopefully I would not have been trapped as the unfortunate girl was but I could have banged my head and drowned before pulling the toggle !! So what are the correct procedures / type of life jacket?
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Old 18 March 2008, 18:18   #13
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I only have one manual lifejacket - all the rest are auto but the more I read the more I think maybe a manual one would be better.

I have read of several capsizes where people were trapped under the boat and drowned - often caused by their lifejacket.
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Old 18 March 2008, 18:37   #14
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Originally Posted by fred bolton View Post
This is indeed a very sad case and it seems a series of basic mistakes were made much seems to have been made that she was a child wearing an adult lifejacket, she was a 14 year old girl who may well have been of adult size and weight so was she the size of a child or an adult?
Actually the child/adult argument was not the issue - she was wearing a specialist lifejacket designed for soldiers carrying lots of kit which has enormous bouyancy 498 N compared to 150 N which would have been correct, and were available.

I find it surprising that they didn't make a bigger issue of the fact that all the passengers were wearing military LJs with the high vis and reflective panels covered [they have removable panels] despite the fact that they were not engaged in an opperation where being visible was a bad idea - it would probably not have been a major factor in this incident (but there are other points they focussed on which also weren't critical in this case) and it MAY have made a difference at the headcount stage.

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The helm had removed the Kill cord !!!
it is an unfortunate reality that if if short handed sometimes you do need to leave the console to carry our tasks that are out of reach. in an ideal world you stop the engines - but in this circumstances that may not have been the safest thing to do. its not clear how long it was from disconnecting the kill cord to the capsize. But given that he was trying to do half a dozen things at once I don't think he will be the first or last to not "waste time" clipping back on immediately.

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How easy is it to deflate a life jacket?
actually not that hard if you know how and your fingers aren't too cold.
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when you are suddenly flung into cold water, disorientated, shocked and probably in total darkness I would suggest that most people would panic, unless they had trained and practised deflating a life jacket in this situation.
yes having been under a dinghy hull (fortunately not trapped) I support the disorienting etc. if it was unexpected, and probably never having been in a capsize situation it would be much more so.

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I personally use a manual gas inflated life jacket so hopefully I would not have been trapped as the unfortunate girl was but I could have banged my head and drowned before pulling the toggle !! So what are the correct procedures / type of life jacket?
I doubt there is a perfect LJ for every situation. She WAS wearing a manual LJ so inflated it herself. Whether that was an automatic reaction on entering the water or after being disoriented and unable to get out for several minutes we will never know. I imagine most of us (leisure users) brief our passengers along the lines of "if you go in the water your life jacket will autoinflate/if it doesn't you pull this red toggle" I doubt many people say if you get trapped under the boat and need to deflate the jacket use the tube at the right...
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Old 18 March 2008, 18:39   #15
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I have read of several capsizes where people were trapped under the boat and drowned - often caused by their lifejacket.
I don't know where the stats would be for this, but my bet would be that far more people had drowned because of an ill-fitting lifejacket, or the lack of spray hoods and/or crutch straps (Ouzo) and I'll stick with my auto inflating jackets. I think I prefer to have the confidence that my lifejacket will inflate (even if I'm not able to do it myself for some reason) and accept what I think is probably a smaller risk that I wouldn't be able to deflate it if I ever needed to.

I guess there isn't a simple perfect answer to suit every situation, we just need to play the odds as we see them
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Old 18 March 2008, 18:43   #16
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The Ouzo crew would have died of the cold anyway.

Agree about the rest though!!!
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Old 18 March 2008, 18:50   #17
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I doubt many people say if you get trapped under the boat and need to deflate the jacket use the tube at the right...
I agree... & sadly so,.. as its just not the sort of circumstances you would imagine your 'life vest' would be a danger to you
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Old 18 March 2008, 18:56   #18
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I don't know where the stats would be for this,
The MAIB report highlights 14 other Dory capsizes. Of which there was one other entrapment resulting in death. But 15 other deaths (from non entraped persons). Whether they were wearing correctly fitting LJs with sprayhoods is not stated. Add in the other situations resulting in a casualty in the water but not a capsize then I know where my priority is.
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Old 18 March 2008, 19:59   #19
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I think I prefer to have the confidence that my lifejacket will inflate (even if I'm not able to do it myself for some reason) and accept what I think is probably a smaller risk that I wouldn't be able to deflate it if I ever needed to.
I'm with you on that one. All my lifejackets are autos.

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Old 18 March 2008, 20:18   #20
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I would much rather have kids or anyone likely to panick in a bouyancy aid type lifejacket , like the crewsaver ones for kids .

Ok they are bulkier to wear but IMO there are far more advantages .


Surely whatever the bouyancy rating of the lifejacket in question the outcome would have been the same .
just perhaps a zip up bouyancy aid type would have been easy and natural to remove and swim free as its just like an every day garment .

I have to admit I never feel happy wearing my auto inflate lifejacket. but i have spent a lifetime wearing bouyancy aids .
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