Woild you buy a diesel rib NOW?

[Poly]

This is a bit of a hypothetical question since I don't actually have any cash to buy a diesel rib with now. But if you did - is it likely to devalue significantly when HMCR finally work out what to do about the red diesel issue.

Please lets not get into an argument about the rights and wrongs or removing the derogation on red.

At the time the red fuel issue first came to the fore - there was a lot of "hype" about it devaluing diesel boats. Any such argument obviously depends on the actual increase in tax - but lets assume the "worst case" and leisure users are paying road prices.

Assuming marine diesel is still available on the dockside then a few years from now I aspire to own a diesel rib for cruising in the West coast of Scotland. This has more to do with access to fuel than economics.

So would I be better holding off until HMCR introduce the new rules OR in the opinion of the ribnetters - is the value of diesel ribs likely to remain unaffected especially those on the West Coast / Ireland where it is the most easily accessible fuel?

Whilst I can't afford e.g. a nice Redbay diesel right now - I need to include this in my strategic planning for negotiations with the keeper of the purse (aka Mrs Polwart).

[Chris]

I am no expert but surely diesel ribs will still be significantly less expensive to run due to the efficency of a diesel over an equivalent petrol engine?

Chris

[John Kennett]

I haven't heard how they plan to implement the new rules. Will they abolish red diesel for marine use, and make commercial users claim back the duty as with petrol? Or will they keep red diesel on the quayside, but only for commercial users?

If diesel remains as readily available as it is now, then I wouldn't expect diesel RIBs to lose much value (although they would probably be harder to sell in the Solent due to the easy availability of petrol).

On the other hand if diesel becomes as hard to get at the quayside as petrol is now, then I can't see many people wanting diesel RIBs.

Have any details actually been published yet?

John

[jwalker]

Hmmm.....If I was buying a boat now I think I would still go diesel. I do like the grunt it has and, since I like mechanical things, the diesel installation gives me a pleasure that the outboard did not give. I guess that's just a personal thing. I do miss the ability to accelerate like a bat out of hell and the ability to cruise at about 40 because the hull works so much better at that speed than the 30 I currently cruise at. However, sea conditions sometimes prevent the higher speed anyway so it's not at the top of my list. Also, I've been trying hard to slow down and loose that frantic way life currently seems to be so having an imposed limit is no bad thing.

The perceived lack of space because of the engine compartment is not an issue if it is designed with thought and, in some ways, it is better than the conglomeration of the fuel lines, control cables, fuel filters etc. which make up that generally gruby or greasy area at the stern of an outboard powered boat. The nicer outboard installations have the engines mounted in their own area to overcome the problems of the clutter but then that area of the boat is removed from general use too. Also, you still have to house the battery, have access to fuel tanking and fuel filling and that can all be under cover in the engine compartment.

The boat also handles better because of the lower CG that a diesel installation gives.

On the down side, the diesel installation is vulnerable. The engine is not watertight as an outboard is and it is also below water level so all possibilities need to be considered and precautions taken.

The boat is also much heavier and driving, especially at close quarters, needs to be done with more care.

As for access to fuel, on the west coast there is no way at present you could cruise extensively without fueling hassle with petrol engines. On the plus side, carrying jerry cans does give you some exercise. None of us know what the diesel situation will settle to in the more remote parts but I'd be surprised if boat owners will be forced to fuel at a petrol station. There are a good number of larger private vessels on the west coast which carry fuel in quantities of thousands of litres and I don't see them being expected to carry it 20lts at a time in jerry cans.

That'll do for now....

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by jwalker

There are a good number of larger private vessels on the west coast which carry fuel in quantities of thousands of litres and I don't see them being expected to carry it 20lts at a time in jerry cans.

Ah, there you go being logical again. I hope you are right, but I wouldn't bank on it!

John

[BogMonster]

I hope diesel gets taxed and all the RIBs become worthless cos then with diesel at 40p a litre and petrol at 71p a litre, I can pick up a bargain diesel engined RIB and cut my running costs to about 25% of what they are now

Coat on and heading for the door before the lynching mob gathers strength

[wavecrosschris]

hypothetically, yes. It's not going to make a lot off difference unless you have something with 2000hp and then chances are, you can afford it anyway.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

Have any details actually been published yet?

No - noone knows. I guess the possibilities are:

1. white fuel only for private users - in many cases this would mean road fuel (i.e. from a petrol station). but in some places marinas would convert.
2. white fuel for everyone and commercial users reclaim. At face value - the logical way - but decontaminating could be very expensive - and difficult to deal with people filling up in the CIs legitamitely with red.
3. red for everyone but charged at different rates depending on use (this is what PBO are apparently lobying for).

I am assuming that there won't become a complete shortage on the west coast as there are a large number of marinas who will need to cater for the diesel WAFIs one way or the other.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by BogMonster

I hope diesel gets taxed and all the RIBs become worthless cos then with diesel at 40p a litre and petrol at 71p a litre, I can pick up a bargain diesel engined RIB and cut my running costs to about 25% of what they are now

Coat on and heading for the door before the lynching mob gathers strength

don't worry stephen it will still cost you £ k's to get it shipped to you

[Poly]

JW - all logical reasons for chosing diesel - which I would agree with (having a diesel mechanic as a father is another one!). but if you currently had an o/board boat would you mae the switch now or hold off 2 years in the hope that the price falls?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Chris1573

I am no expert but surely diesel ribs will still be significantly less expensive to run due to the efficency of a diesel over an equivalent petrol engine?

Chris

I think there is about a 25% fuel saving (in volume per mile) but it takes a lot longer for that to pay itself off the extra purchase cost if diesel is the same price (or higher) than petrol - compared to when it is less than half the price. I think the original hype was that people would not pay double and just leave boating all together.

e.g. Roughly: Petrol cost £1/litre, red diesel cost £0.50/litre, white diesel £1/litre:

Cost of 200 HP engine on petrol probably about £60/hr on petrol. £23/hr on red diesel and £46/hr on white.

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Polwart

..but if you currently had an o/board boat would you mae the switch now or hold off 2 years in the hope that the price falls?

Neil, if you mean would I hold off buying for 2 years in the hope that the price of secondhand diesel RIBs fall, then no way would I hold off. For a number of reasons two of which are; you can do whole lot of cruising yet at the present price and you never know what may be around the corner for you...enjoy while you are able.

I think the original hype was that people would not pay double and just leave boating all together.

Well I could see that happening to me. I love being on the sea but funds are not unlimited and part of the logic for moving up to a diesel rib was to pay upfront while I could and enjoy the lower cost during the later years. With the previous boat, if, say, I left Port Seton and headed off for a day at St Andrews, by the time I was home the outing would have cost me the best part of 150 quid. That's a lot of dosh and I'd certainly find it difficult to sustain now I've retired. If I'm forced to pay £1 per litre, I may well have to reconsider boating.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Neil, if you mean would I hold off buying for 2 years in the hope that the price of secondhand diesel RIBs fall, then no way would I hold off. For a number of reasons two of which are; you can do whole lot of cruising yet at the present price and you never know what may be around the corner for you...enjoy while you are able.

Jeff, thanks - exactly what I wanted to here... ...ok so the only logical reason now is because we could use the money elsewhere - so what I need is a diesel rib that is such a bargain that I just have to snap it up while it is available...

[jwalker]

If I was doing it now I'd still go to Humber and buy a new hull/tubes. I can't remember the exact price but it was in the region of 8-9 grand for the 8.5mtr but I'd buy a 9.5mtr. There are diesel engine bargains to be had if you are prepared to take the risk and maybe carry the warranty yourself. I used a main Volvo dealer and got what could be considered a very good deal for a main dealer but, knowing what I know now, I'd definately consider the alternative strategy.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by jwalker

If I was doing it now I'd still go to Humber and buy a new hull/tubes. I can't remember the exact price but it was in the region of 8-9 grand for the 8.5mtr but I'd buy a 9.5mtr. There are diesel engine bargains to be had if you are prepared to take the risk and maybe carry the warranty yourself. I used a main Volvo dealer and got what could be considered a very good deal for a main dealer but, knowing what I know now, I'd definately consider the alternative strategy.

mmm... I think she is of the opinion that some form of shelter (either proper cabin or the redbay style tent thingy) would be desirable... we have one little-un and there could be more to follow at some point. He loves the boat but gets too cold in the wind chill - even at 20 knots. Mrs P got wet on a few occasions and now has reassessed her priorities from - "cabins don't look very pretty" to "crikey thats quite practical".

Now I know that in theory one can aquire a tractor cab and DIY it but thats not in my skill base nor do I have the time or space.

Something like 7.5m is probably more than enough for me. I've not seen anyone else making redbay type giant sprayhoods? I assume there is some skill/engineering involved for it to survive travelling at speed. Humber have some fairly industrial looking cabins - no idea what that adds to cost. Parker have a nice cabin on their boats - but never seen one second hand and suspect its out of the hypothetical budget new. Most people developing cabin ribs seem to be working on the "sleep on board" approach - which whilst I wouldn't say no to that isn't on our essential list. Keeping the rain and spray off is.

All in all its a big leap from a 3.9m bathtub with a 20HP outboard - so not sure we will make the transition in one step - I am just trying to balance up the arguments for and against the options...

Cheers,

N

[Poly]

Originally Posted by jwalker

...that's a lot of dosh and I'd certainly find it difficult to sustain now I've retired. If I'm forced to pay £1 per litre, I may well have to reconsider boating.

Well if you want to swap - then I would be happy to provide a vessel which costs about £5/h in fuel at cruising speed

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Now I know that in theory one can aquire a tractor cab and DIY it ...

Speak to gaRfie.

... so not sure we will make the transition in one step ..

Each step costs a lot, do it in a oner.

"cabins don't look very pretty" to "crikey thats quite practical".

A sensible lady you have there.

Actually, think very carefully about what you really want from your boating. Nip down to FYM and have a wee look at these. They can come with the 1.7 diesel. Not an off shore rib but they could give you a lot of boating pleasure.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by jwalker

Actually, think very carefully about what you really want from your boating. Nip down to FYM and have a wee look at these. They can come with the 1.7 diesel. Not an off shore rib but they could give you a lot of boating pleasure.

mmm food for thought there ... might need to improve my "parking style" with a fibreglass boat though...

I think we will get the house move out the way and then begin exploring the possibility of a boat upgrade for 2008.

[RIVA]

if i had the 20k extra capital , and did more than 250hrs per year .
then yes . if not no it does not make finacial sence .

no one ever takes into account the price of maintaning a deisel rib ??
and the fact they dont sell second hand as well as a outboard so think carefully

[Roy Smith]

Man at Northney marina told us that all Deisel would be white
every one pays pump price then if you are a commercial user
you claim back the duty at the end of the quarter.
That way they dont need inspectors to dip the tank etc.
But what if you buy it on a trip from say Alderney ?