What would take to flip a rib - Page 2

ADS · 21 January 2005, 09:57

The Ribcraft I rolled was 3.6M,

Nashers Flatacraft was 4M

Bilge's Avon is 4.7M

BUT the lifeboat is over 7M.

I think you could probably flip anything if you drove it irresponsively enough, and the conditions are rough. To be honest though if you do flip out at sea due to the conditions and do manage to right the boat you are unlikey to get the engine going before the boat flips again. IMHO would it be posssible to re start one of these new high-tech engines i.e E-TEC, Optimax, after a submerse or would all the electrics be knackered?
You would probably be able to get an old tech carb. engine such as mine going again but imagine draining the carb and changing the plugs in a F7

pettal · 21 January 2005, 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADS

The Ribcraft I rolled was 3.6M,

Nashers Flatacraft was 4M

Bilge's Avon is 4.7M

BUT the lifeboat is over 7M.

I think you could probably flip anything if you drove it irresponsively enough, and the conditions are rough. To be honest though if you do flip out at sea due to the conditions and do manage to right the boat you are unlikey to get the engine going before the boat flips again. IMHO would it be posssible to re start one of these new high-tech engines i.e E-TEC, Optimax, after a submerse or would all the electrics be knackered?
You would probably be able to get an old tech carb. engine such as mine going again but imagine draining the carb and changing the plugs in a F7

What are you saying about the RNLI !

Yeah not sure what would happen in my 7.2, I've come close to pitchpoling in an old BWM21, but that had a ridiculous sized engine on the back all the seating seemed to be way too far back and we hit a nice wave with wind over tide and the wind caught the underside.

Managed to bury the engine and partially swamp the boat......luckily the engine seemed to come out of it unscathed and it didn't take long for the bilge pumps to get rid of the excess water.

I now check to the wind direction before I go wave jumping and make sure the wind is behind me when I hit a wave at 40knts!

Not sure what would happen to an Opti if it was flipped!?!? With all the electrnics in there it should call for help whilst making you a hot cup of coffee and a cheese toasty!

Bilge Rat · 21 January 2005, 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ADS

The Ribcraft I rolled was 3.6M,

Nashers Flatacraft was 4M

Bilge's Avon is 4.7M

BUT the lifeboat is over 7M.

I think you could probably flip anything if you drove it irresponsively enough, and the conditions are rough. To be honest though if you do flip out at sea due to the conditions and do manage to right the boat you are unlikey to get the engine going before the boat flips again. IMHO would it be posssible to re start one of these new high-tech engines i.e E-TEC, Optimax, after a submerse or would all the electrics be knackered?
You would probably be able to get an old tech carb. engine such as mine going again but imagine draining the carb and changing the plugs in a F7

Ads is correct, it wasn't the electrics though that suffered but more water getting into the cylinders and remember mine wasn't running either and really only had a quick dunk, had it been running it would have sucked in water and been worse to sort quickly, the secret though (i'm told) with any submersion is to get the engine running again as quick as possible and leave it running for a considerable period of time, it took us a good 2 hours to clear out all the water and get it to start and run, even then it would only run on 3 cylinders as we later found out that one of the plugs had gone bad.

In hindsight i believe had we been actually on the water the accident wouldn't have happened, the ribs good in fairly heavy seas anyway, it was the action of the waves breaking and the hull meeting the edge of the beach which forced the side up and flipping it on top of us.

I'd suggest in a heavy sea having a ditch kit containing spare VHF, flares etc tied to a lenght of rope and maybe a bungee holding it somewhere on the deck of the boat, then if it does flip over you can either reach under and grab it or as like mine everthing gets thrown clear and you can then recover it on the surface.

Bilge Rat · 21 January 2005, 10:29

Interestingly i have friends who were on the Whitstable life boat when it pitch polled, the cox was the only one who actually managed to stay with and right the boat, the three crew got washed away and couldn't get back to the boat, they were so close to shore that they ended up on the beach, the cox righted the boat but couldn't manage to get back in and both he and the boat ended up on the beach too. the place it happened was about 150 metres north of the harbour wall, there is a shelf where the sea floor suddenly drops from very shallow to a bit deeper.

jwalker · 21 January 2005, 10:59

Good story Bilge Rat.

Dumping waves are considered dangerous because they do as they are called. The outgoing water from the previous wave prevents the base of the incoming wave advancing. The result is that the wave base is stopped but the rest of the water continues, bottoms out on the outgoing water, lifts up and falls in its entirety. The whole of the wave energy is released in a very short time and much of it is upwards and lifting. Even as a body in the sea, one can be lifted and dumped virtually onto the ground rather than into water. Dodgy things, I don't like 'em.

Bilge Rat · 21 January 2005, 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwalker

Good story Bilge Rat.

Dumping waves are considered dangerous because they do as they are called. The outgoing water from the previous wave prevents the base of the incoming wave advancing. The result is that the wave base is stopped but the rest of the water continues, bottoms out on the outgoing water, lifts up and falls in its entirety. The whole of the wave energy is released in a very short time and much of it is upwards and lifting. Even as a body in the sea, one can be lifted and dumped virtually onto the ground rather than into water. Dodgy things, I don't like 'em.

Tell me about it !!

to be honest looking at the sea it didn't actually look that bad, the guy that was driving the tractor is RNLI and i'd consider fairly experienced, my crewman on the day has been boating for a lot longer than me and we lauch in this spot all the time and i've launched there in simular conditions, the three of us thought we'd got it right

if we'd managed to keep the boat aiming out or even turned it completely around so it was nose out we'd have been ok, the fact it swamped made it like trying to turn a brick in mud, we had no chance and seconds later it was ontop of me

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and i've changed the way i launch and predict the sea state now, everything happens for a reason and i believe its made me a better mariner and more conscious of my actions and responsabilities, at the end of the day the only real damage was to me, i consider myself fairly lucky !!

pettal · 21 January 2005, 12:42

Trying to do anything in shallow water on the shore edge is very difficult as the constant pounding or pushing of the waves on a rib does have a habit of pushing the stern in towards shore....especially as you say when it's relativey deep and then shallow very quickly.....the nose of the rib just wants to pivot.

I regularly drop off friends to some of our less accessable beaches in the summer and I've found that going nose in you have to keep an eye on where the stern is going and have to correct with shorts blips with a well trimmed up engine.

I've found occaisionally a small stern grapling hook or anchor comes in handy to try and stop the boat from getting broadsided by the waves.

Scary Des · 21 January 2005, 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by pettal

Trying to do anything in shallow water on the shore edge is very difficult as the constant pounding or pushing of the waves on a rib does have a habit of pushing the stern in towards shore....especially as you say when it's relativey deep and then shallow very quickly....

This is a common issue in Sri Lanka because in a lot of places around the coast they have blown-up the reef for building ballast (little gravel on SL) resulting in ocean rollers landing straight on the beach

Launching was alright as long as you kept the boat straight and cleared the surf quickly. This was achieved using a lot of man power to push the boat out far enough for the motor to bite.

To make this process easier some people I know were working on a system of pulling the boat out to sea by using a land bases power winch and a never-ending belt connected to a pulley on the sea bed. You clipped your boat, on started the winch, get pulled out to sea and drop the tow when far enough out

It was bulling 30’ fishing boat out without too many problems

Des

Bilge Rat · 21 January 2005, 13:16

And i thought i'd had a bad day

CND · 21 January 2005, 14:37

Surely "flippyness" is mostly to do with the design of the boat and the weight distribution? some designs are notably more notorious than others and if you have a dead weight of an engine on the back with a dirty great amount of torque/thrust then the bows are going to come up and whoops!

Boat set up is essential, as are the conditions on which the boat is operating, i think a few of us have highlighted the "risk" areas well on this thread.

I think its possible on rivers where you go under a bridge at speed and you get a few rollers due to the tide/ current arond the bridge. One moment its nice and flat, the next youre on a fair old lumpy suface that is not just a simple jump. Thats whats nearly caught me out, not out in a heavy sea.

It doesnt have to be a rib, but if you dont want it to flip, youre going to have to be going for a ship... sorry, i know that doesnt rhyme!

Bilge Rat · 21 January 2005, 14:47

I think basically shit does happen and events can conspire to catch you out, for this reason we all have insurance, even if your really careful things can go wrong and Ribs arn't the infallable craft we all seem to believe in, yes they will take on the rough stuff but get it wrong and your in the shit in big style.

Seb · 21 January 2005, 15:45

Well, ships may not readily have to worry about flipping but they do have to worry about rogue waves and the consequences!

Not sure which is the worst scenario.....?

codprawn · 21 January 2005, 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by CND

Surely "flippyness" is mostly to do with the design of the boat and the weight distribution? some designs are notably more notorious than others and if you have a dead weight of an engine on the back with a dirty great amount of torque/thrust then the bows are going to come up and whoops!

Boat set up is essential, as are the conditions on which the boat is operating, i think a few of us have highlighted the "risk" areas well on this thread.

I think its possible on rivers where you go under a bridge at speed and you get a few rollers due to the tide/ current arond the bridge. One moment its nice and flat, the next youre on a fair old lumpy suface that is not just a simple jump. Thats whats nearly caught me out, not out in a heavy sea.

It doesnt have to be a rib, but if you dont want it to flip, youre going to have to be going for a ship... sorry, i know that doesnt rhyme!

Couldn't agree more - people seem so afraid of stuffing that they put all the weight at the back - humber seem one of the few to put the console at the front.

Obviously on commercial boats the console is at the back as the weight comes from the passengers but when the boat is empty it is a different story!!!

smokie · 21 January 2005, 18:05

I'm glad I was able to bring about a serious discussion on something we all should be aware of: what can cause a flip and how to equip ourselves for those of us that venture offshore.

Since we could be talking life or death. If I had a rib for offshore fishing, I would want to equip it with a self righting bag plus a system where I could restart the motor if possible. Furthermore I would wear a full 1/4 inch wet suit or dry suit. Finally I would have strapped to my leg a beacon device that sends distress signals to a satellite. Expensive? Yes, but how much is your life worth?

Since we are sharing flip stories, I have one. I don't have a rib, its a Zodiac with an inflatable keel. When I was much younger, my brother and I launched my Zodiac on the beach in Pacifica, a small town on the coast just south of San Francisco to go salmon fishing. At that time I had an old 12hp motor on the boat. As a precaution I took a 3hp motor as a back up.

Well, 50 yards offshore my prop hit a submerged rock and busted the shear pin. I had no spare parts (stupid) so I took off the 12hp an put on the 3hp motor. Imagine being offshore in the Pacific with the wind and swells picking up (as they do here in the afternoon) and all you have is a 3hp motor! Well, just motoring among the swells was no so bad. It was coming in that I was soon to learn.

When we attempted to come ashore there were big rollers crashing on to the beach. As we were coming in, we found ourselves at the top of a wave. I say that because by the sound of the motor it must have been spinning in air. The next thing I new the boat flipped and my brother and I were in the water. Fortunately it was close to shore and we were wearing full wet suits. Some of the stuff we had was floating, that did not float was lost. The sea washed us close to shore enough that my brother and I could stand up and grab the boat. When we realized we were both safe we gave out a big laugh over the exhilarating experience. It was fun but it would have been much more serious if it happened several miles offshore.

Inflatables go offshore at that location frequently and come in safely when the surf is up. I watched then come in. First, then have a motor capable of maintaining a speed equal to greater the speed of the waves coming in. They then wait offshore for a big wave to develop and then come in the right behind it.

Nyarla · 21 January 2005, 18:39

Hi all.
Excluding being rolled inshore whilst launching. Which is covered by having enough bodies, judging the conditions, it`s always possible to say no the conditions don`t allow launching safely. Learn to drive the boat. I was very proud to be on a Diver coxwain assessment course as an instructor and to hear the chief examiner talking about the only people he has never had Polaris a Rib off a wave. He put it down to the only common link he saw between the two of us, apart from the fact she was my wife, the link was we were both motorcyclists of long experiance. He surmised that the common links of much higher horsepower for the conditions, hand throttles and skill in judging the "road" had caused this skill. Ok she has since left me and bought a Hard Dive boat and I have a new female , also a biker and very good at handling the Rib in poor conditions, but it`s a thought. Maybe learn a hand throttle vehicle in conditions where too much throttle can loop you on to tarmac with an 18 wheeler on your arse and Ribs become more controlable.

Bilge Rat · 21 January 2005, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nyarla

Hi all.
Excluding being rolled inshore whilst launching. Which is covered by having enough bodies, judging the conditions, it`s always possible to say no the conditions don`t allow launching safely. Learn to drive the boat. I was very proud to be on a Diver coxwain assessment course as an instructor and to hear the chief examiner talking about the only people he has never had Polaris a Rib off a wave. He put it down to the only common link he saw between the two of us, apart from the fact she was my wife, the link was we were both motorcyclists of long experiance. He surmised that the common links of much higher horsepower for the conditions, hand throttles and skill in judging the "road" had caused this skill. Ok she has since left me and bought a Hard Dive boat and I have a new female , also a biker and very good at handling the Rib in poor conditions, but it`s a thought. Maybe learn a hand throttle vehicle in conditions where too much throttle can loop you on to tarmac with an 18 wheeler on your arse and Ribs become more controlable.

Er did anyone else get any of that !!

Seb · 21 January 2005, 21:02

Nope

Hightower · 21 January 2005, 21:20

Just a few photo's of waves that could flip RIBs.

vortex · 22 January 2005, 00:54

OK now I'm scared

pettal · 22 January 2005, 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Couldn't agree more - people seem so afraid of stuffing that they put all the weight at the back - humber seem one of the few to put the console at the front.

Obviously on commercial boats the console is at the back as the weight comes from the passengers but when the boat is empty it is a different story!!!

XS-Ribs also put the majority of the weight up the front, and like myself you can ask for it to be put a little bit further forward if you like. Mine was purely for deck space, but on the trip back across the channel there were a couple of times that the wind caught the underside and having the weight at the front was a blessing...........I'm not sure what would have happened if it had been laid out like a commercial boat with the helm position at the back!