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Old 11 July 2012, 14:30   #61
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Anyway, you all know what I mean, seafaring has been going on for centuries, long before RYA courses, so I think that proves you don't need to do one, but if you can afford it then it is a jolly good idea, subject to a decent instructor who is not a nobber
I'm sure that RYA PB2 courses are not responsible for this but sea casualty figures have improved enormously over the centuries!

Historically people went to sea for various reasons, food, defence, exploration etc - but typically they learned their 'trade' over a prolonged period gradually by osmosis or by tuition from a 'master' who taught their apprentice over many years, before their protigee was set loose on their own. Its unlikely that many 'land lubbers' woke up one day decided the sea looked fun, bought a boat and set off.

I would certainly agree with your comments about instructors, and notwithstanding my earlier observation that there are cheap courses around (and a cheap course run by an 'average' instructor is still going to teach most new folk a lot) - there are definitely different types of course around and different instructors so it pays to hunt around to understand what makes a particular school suited to your needs. e.g. a sailing club is likely to be focussed largely around the sort of ribbing that their rescue boats do (short journeys, local waters, low speed manoeuvres, towing etc) whilst a dedicated powerboat school might be more likely to have you navigating and thinking about arriving on a 'far off' beach or harbour. Sailing clubs and outdoor centres also usually see RIBS as a tool and may only run a PB2 course once or twice a year - whilst a 'professional' school might run a course every week or two [I recently heard someone complain a course they were on was run quite complacently though - as it was 'just another pb2'] . Boats also vary widely so whist it might be fun, or even interesting, to learb in a 9m diesel 250 HP rib if you will mostly be using a tiller steered dory with 15 HP then finding a school that can provide plenty of relevant practice is probably more beneficial. Small schools are likely to use one instructor for most (all?) of a course which means either a personality clash or a poor quality instructor will mean you don't get as much out of it - whereas a big training centre might have a dozen people all on a course together and you stand a better chance of finding someone who you can work with [but certainly in some cases several relatively young/inexperienced instructors - and the 'expert' ends up coordinating rather than training].

One final thing to be aware of is it is rare to hear anyone not recommend the school they did their training at. But of course people normally only do one PB2 course in their life, so have no real ability to say "XYZ runs a great course" he may in fact only run a mediocre course - just that it was still useful.
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Old 11 July 2012, 14:36   #62
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No your perception of risk associated with rock climbing is probably wrong! Statistically you are more likely to die playing table tennis (Risk of dying and sporting activities).

How many people walk into Tiso buy a climbing rack, rope and harness and then set off with no training - because it doesn't look that hard? Most people who have climbed a few times with a friend don't feel confident enough to head off into the wilds on their own, they either continue climbing under the supervision of their experienced friend as an 'apprentice' or they go and get some proper training. As with boating there is no certainty that your experienced friend is not introducing bad habits or techniques which are now considered outdated; although since their life usually depends on it to there might be more of a motivation to get it right.
Yeh it probably is mate. I just completely fabricated it, just trying to be cleaver, they are completely different sets risk assesments for each, incomparable in fact, a ludicrous statement of generalisation around the fact that each can be fatal. Should have saved your fingers.
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Old 11 July 2012, 14:40   #63
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No your perception of risk associated with rock climbing is probably wrong! Statistically you are more likely to die playing table tennis (Risk of dying and sporting activities).
This is confusing the death rate per 100,000 people that play table tennis with the death rate per a set number of climbs.

It would be much better to compare the death rate per hour of climbing/playing table tennis - do you really believe that Rock Climbing is safer than Table Tennis.

For a long time people claimed that motorways were safer than normal roads - they are if you compare driver/passenger trip miles but if you compare driver/passenger trip hours then they are the same.

A true statistic is if you buy a Saturday lottery ticket before Thursday you are more likely to die in a road accident than you are to win the lottery. Another true statistic is that you are more likely to die in bed than anywhere else - I can imagine that a number of Rib Netters will now start sleepling on the floor.
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Old 11 July 2012, 14:41   #64
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Think I already covered all that unless I am typing in white ink again Or is it because I am not an RYA instructor so I can't be believed
I'm not an RYA instructor either so remove that chip frae yir shoulder. However, any competent trainer, would realise that you imparted some information early on, but the OP has summarised his learning and missed out some key points; thats the difference between a trainer and a person with experience - the former checks that you've understood it - the latter assumes that any halfwit would have been paying attention
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Old 11 July 2012, 14:43   #65
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Blimey! At this posting rate spareribs will break Codprawns all time record.
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Old 11 July 2012, 14:53   #66
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Blimey! At this posting rate spareribs will break Codprawns all time record.
I'm new to this forum thing and boating, so it a double enthusiasm burst. I'm like a sponge at the moment.
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Old 11 July 2012, 14:55   #67
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You any good at Bass fishing then?
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Old 11 July 2012, 15:01   #68
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Is that a monkey you are spanking?


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However, any competent trainer, would realise that you imparted some information early on, but the OP has summarised his learning and missed out some key points; thats the difference between a trainer and a person with experience - the former checks that you've understood it - the latter assumes that any halfwit would have been paying attention
More like posters are not reading the thread properly!
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Old 11 July 2012, 15:04   #69
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I'm like a sponge at the moment.
Yup!
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Old 11 July 2012, 16:22   #70
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This is confusing the death rate per 100,000 people that play table tennis with the death rate per a set number of climbs.
yes unfortunately I don't have access to the full paper - but it would seem that whilst they compared several of the sports using the sort of metric you want, they did not do this with table tennis. Still the following trend is probably surprising to most people based on gut feel:

Base Jumping > Skydiving > Hangliding > Marathon Running > Scuba Diving > Rock Climbing > Canoeing > Skiing

Quote:
It would be much better to compare the death rate per hour of climbing/playing table tennis
actually I think the per flight / per clamp / per game approach is probably more meaningful, I'm not sure I am really 20x more likely to die on an all day climb than a quick 'sprint' up a local crag.
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- do you really believe that Rock Climbing is safer than Table Tennis.
I suspect that rock climbers are probably generally quite fit and healthy and my experience is whilst it is tough it is not a major cardiac 'load', this is consistent with the abstract of the german paper which implies traumatic injuries are more likely a problem in 'perceived high risk activities' and cardiac events are more likely an issue in 'perceived safe' sports - e.g. football > tennis > table tennis - so no, clearly a traumatic death is probably more likely climbing that playing table tennis (unless you play against people with anger management issues); but the point is that rock climbing is actually pretty safe compared to the public perception of risk. I've no data to back it up - but I wouldn't be surprised if you were more likely to die driving to / from a climb than actually climbing. Unfortunately that table didn't include sailing/boating but I'd guess its higher risk than climbing.
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