Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 
Old 11 June 2011, 18:01   #1
Member
 
lakelandterrier's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Gloucester
Boat name: Lunasea
Make: Ribcraft
Length: 5m +
Engine: Suzi 140
MMSI: 232005050
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,403
What knots & bends?

I want to teach Mrs T & the puppies some key knots & bends so they can be more involved whilst afloat (& I have to do less).

I have a shortlist of he most useful knots & bends - more than which I seldom use:
Bowline
(Double) sheet bend
Clove hitch
Figure of eight
round turn 2 half hitches

Is this a good list that all should know & be able to apply?
I've found I seldom use more than this, so am I missing anything for general purpose use? i'm quite happy to have the expertise myself if we ever need a reverse lay double barreled sideways hitch with knobs on.
do people NEED to know more than my top 5? and if so in what circumstances?
__________________

__________________
lakelandterrier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11 June 2011, 19:47   #2
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: New Forest
Length: 6m +
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 50
A bowline and round turn and two half hitches will do most things you need on a RIB.
__________________

__________________
marinesafety is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 03:36   #3
RIBnet supporter
 
Ian M's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: New Milton
Boat name: Jianna
Make: Osprey
Length: 6m +
Engine: 200 E-TEC
MMSI: 235076954
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,937
Quote:
Originally Posted by marinesafety View Post
A bowline and round turn and two half hitches will do most things you need on a RIB.
I also find myself using a clove hitch, particularly for fenders on a short stop. Too lazy for the rt and 2 half hitches
__________________
Ian

Dust creation specialist
Ian M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 03:58   #4
Member
 
Country: USA
Town: Oakland CA
Length: 3m +
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,653
I find one of the most useful (after the bowline) is the Alpine Butterfly Knot (goes by several other names I can't recall offhand.) Makes a loop in the middle of a line with no access to the ends. Biggest plusses are that it holds well, and unties easily after a heavy load is placed on it. Perfect for forming a loop in your anchor line for the carabiner, and can be used to shorten a line.

Alpine Butterfly Loop | How to tie the Alpine Butterfly Loop | Climbing Knots


jky
__________________
jyasaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 04:10   #5
Member
 
Doug Stormforce's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Boat name: Yoda & Obi Wan
Make: Valiant 750 & XS600
Length: 7m +
Engine: 150, 115 HP
MMSI: Various
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakelandterrier
I want to teach Mrs T & the puppies some key knots & bends so they can be more involved whilst afloat (& I have to do less).

I have a shortlist of he most useful knots & bends - more than which I seldom use:
Bowline
(Double) sheet bend
Clove hitch
Figure of eight
round turn 2 half hitches

Is this a good list that all should know & be able to apply?
I've found I seldom use more than this, so am I missing anything for general purpose use? i'm quite happy to have the expertise myself if we ever need a reverse lay double barreled sideways hitch with knobs on.
do people NEED to know more than my top 5? and if so in what circumstances?

I know it sounds basic but they need to know how to secure to a cleat and how to coil a rope.

This list you have got could probably loose the fig of 8. It's not the best stopper knot on the planet as it comes undone too easily. The only stopper knot on my RIBS is on the elephants trunk anyway so it's not something the crew need to tie regularly.

While clove hitch has a purpose it can generally be replaced by the round turn and 2 half hitches.

I teach RIB students the following

Bowline
Round turn and 3 half hitches (3 or more)
Double sheetbend
Securing to a cleat + locking turn
Coiling a line

More if they are interested but the above serves them quite well
__________________
STORMFORCE COACHING
web - www.stormforce.biz
email - coaching@stormforce.biz
tel - 02380 231122
Doug Stormforce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 04:42   #6
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Sussex
Boat name: Bombard, Y-162
Make: Aerotec 380, Y-Class
Length: 3m +
Engine: Mercury Mariner 15hp
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,010
I only ever use the list of five you gave - the site that jky linked to is a marvel and I learnt mine off there. Learnt a few others too for the fun of it - the higwayman's hitch as I grew up with cowboy films and loved when they pulled the rope to release the horse... LOL

I would recommend 'Knots and Splices' by Steve Judkins too - only book you really need and incredibly clear and easy to follow.
__________________
Max... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 04:50   #7
Administrator
 
John Kennett's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Brighton
Length: 3m +
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 6,967
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce
Round turn and 3 half hitches (3 or more)
Why the superfluous half hitches? All that achieves is a knot that takes longer to undo!

Definitely agree about teaching to coil a rope and make fast to a cleat. It continues to amaze me how many people can't do that properly.
__________________
John Kennett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 05:12   #8
Member
 
Andy B's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: southampton
Length: 4m +
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 342
If you want to teach someone (or learn yourself )
I found this site very helpfull,
All knots shown in step by step pictures
http://www.animatedknots.com/indexbo...matedknots.com
__________________
Andy B is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 05:21   #9
Member
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Make: HumberOceanOffshore
Length: 8m +
Engine: Volvo KAD300/DPX
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,374
Bowline first, round turn n two half hitches and occasionally a clove hitch. It's useful if you need to tie to something not using the end of the rope, a pole or similar because you can make it by forming two simple loops and laying them together. Even if the ends of the rope are tied off already. And tying to a cleat, obviously. Hehe, I'll tell you what bugs me, when some 'helper' coils my long warps over their hand and elbow.... Don't do it!
__________________
JW.
jwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 06:46   #10
RIBnet supporter
 
gotchiguy's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Dinard, Brittany
Boat name: Into the Red
Make: Osprey Vipermax
Length: 7m +
Engine: Evinrude E-tec 250HO
MMSI: 235 076 114
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,953
RIBase
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce View Post
Securing to a cleat + locking turn
No criticism just interested: on both PB1 and PB2 we were taught that it is very bad practice to use the locking turn. Can't really remember why but I always have an argument when frenchies try and do it. 0800 is RYA standard isn't it?

Oh and jw, what wrong with the elbow trick (not that we use it just wondering?)
__________________
gotchiguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 07:11   #11
Member
 
lakelandterrier's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Gloucester
Boat name: Lunasea
Make: Ribcraft
Length: 5m +
Engine: Suzi 140
MMSI: 232005050
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,403
Thanks for the replies chaps.
The first things I did teach "the crew" is making fast to a cleat (with locking turn!), casting off (and painter recovery / securing it thereof) and the use of a round turn to take strain.

Had',t though of need to teach coiling ropes - but that is fairly important .

I find bowline and clove hitch the most common knots I use, and a double sheet bend if I have to join 2 lengths of line - double sheet bend will hold anything, so why bother with reef knot / single sheet bend?

Figure of 8 is an easy one to learn as a starter & is useful, but I agree not so necessary on a RIB.
__________________
lakelandterrier is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 07:53   #12
Member
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Make: HumberOceanOffshore
Length: 8m +
Engine: Volvo KAD300/DPX
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 5,374
Quote:
Originally Posted by gotchiguy View Post
.....Oh and jw, what wrong with the elbow trick (not that we use it just wondering?)
It twists the rope. If the wound rope is simply released to undo it it's likely to be tangled. Other looping methods can also cause the same problem. I find that long loops are a big help in reducing tangles. Also one can coil the rope one turn forehand then one turn backhand so each successive turn twists the opposite way. The result is no twists when released.
__________________
JW.
jwalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 07:53   #13
Member
 
Pikey Dave's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: South Yorks
Boat name: Black Pig
Make: Ribcraft
Length: 5m +
Engine: DF140a
MMSI: 235111389
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 9,325
RIBase
Quote:
Originally Posted by gotchiguy View Post
Oh and jw, what wrong with the elbow trick (not that we use it just wondering?)
It puts a half twist in each coil so that when you uncoil it it kinks like buggery. The same happens with electric flex, that's why the missus's iron has always got broken cores in the cable. When you wind it around the elbow you will notice that the coil tries to form a figure "8" shape, that's the twist trying to get out.
__________________
Rule#2: Never argue with an idiot. He'll drag you down to his level & then beat you with experience.
Rule#3: Tha' can't educate pork.
Rule#4:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y
Pikey Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 10:19   #14
Member
 
Doug Stormforce's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Boat name: Yoda & Obi Wan
Make: Valiant 750 & XS600
Length: 7m +
Engine: 150, 115 HP
MMSI: Various
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kennett View Post
Why the superfluous half hitches? All that achieves is a knot that takes longer to undo!
If you use the RTTHH to secure a boat to say a swinging mooring it has been known to undo when there is a lot of movement (snatch in the line), much more so with modern braid on braid and double braid ropes than more traditional 3 plait or hawser laid ropes. The solutions are to ensure you have a long tail end after the half hitches and to tie some extra half hitches.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gotchiguy View Post
No criticism just interested: on both PB1 and PB2 we were taught that it is very bad practice to use the locking turn. Can't really remember why but I always have an argument when frenchies try and do it. 0800 is RYA standard isn't it?
It is a sad fact that hundreds of experienced small boat Instructors have been brain washed into condemning the locking turn. The OXO and 0800 are OK for securing for a few minutes but they are not secure enough to trust your boat to, for long term and I have seen a yacht secured in this manor slip itself free. There are two reasons why the locking turn gained a poor reputation and they both occur when the person tying the cleat does it wrongly.

When tying to a standard T or TT shaped cleat, I recommend one or more round turns around the leg(s) followed by two (preferably more) fig 8s around the 2 horns of the cleat, followed by a locking turn on one of the horns. The locking turn is then gripping onto rope and not onto the metal cleat. Those that miss out the figures of 8s and put the locking turn straight onto the metal horn risk it tightening so much that it literally locks and they can not undo it.

The second problem with locking turns is when one boat ties to a cleat in the manor described above and then a second line is tied over the top. The force of the top line tightening can also cause the locking turn from the first line to lock too tight.

In summary a locking turn used correctly is not a problem and a far better way of tying up the boat than 0800 and OXO. The key points are
  • Use 2 or more Figure of 8s before the locking turn.
  • Dont tie a second line over a locking turn

Those that slander the locking turn have simply misunderstood how to use it correctly.
__________________
STORMFORCE COACHING
web - www.stormforce.biz
email - coaching@stormforce.biz
tel - 02380 231122
Doug Stormforce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 12:54   #15
Administrator
 
John Kennett's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Brighton
Length: 3m +
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 6,967
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce View Post
If you use the RTTHH to secure a boat to say a swinging mooring it has been known to undo when there is a lot of movement (snatch in the line), much more so with modern braid on braid and double braid ropes than more traditional 3 plait or hawser laid ropes. The solutions are to ensure you have a long tail end after the half hitches and to tie some extra half hitches.
OK, but that's a fiarly specific situation. I wouldn't have thought that is was enough reason to train people to do lots of extra half hitches.

Quote:
In summary a locking turn used correctly is not a problem and a far better way of tying up the boat than 0800 and OXO. The key points are
  • Use 2 or more Figure of 8s before the locking turn.
  • Dont tie a second line over a locking turn
And it only needs one locking turn, not on every turn as often seen.

I think I can probably have a guess, but I'll bite anyway. What's 0800 and OXO?
__________________
John Kennett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 13:08   #16
Member
 
Doug Stormforce's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Boat name: Yoda & Obi Wan
Make: Valiant 750 & XS600
Length: 7m +
Engine: 150, 115 HP
MMSI: Various
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 1,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kennett View Post
I think I can probably have a guess, but I'll bite anyway. What's 0800 and OXO?
Alternatives (that I am not very fond of) that often get taught/used for securing to a cleat instead of a hitch/locking turn.

0800 (as in the freephone number) is round turn, fig 8, 2 more round turns
OXO (pronounced like the gravy granules) is a round turn, fig 8 round turn
__________________
STORMFORCE COACHING
web - www.stormforce.biz
email - coaching@stormforce.biz
tel - 02380 231122
Doug Stormforce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 13:10   #17
Member
 
TonyC's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Wales
Make: XS // Delta
Length: 6m +
Engine: 60hp // 2x90hp
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 213
OXO = whole turn round cleat (O), cross over twice (X), whole turn again (O)

__________________
TonyC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 14:05   #18
Member
 
Country: USA
Town: Oakland CA
Length: 3m +
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 6,653
Quote:
Originally Posted by Max... View Post
the higwayman's hitch as I grew up with cowboy films and loved when they pulled the rope to release the horse... LOL
I use that to tie up the dog when I'm having coffee.


jky
__________________
jyasaki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 14:09   #19
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Mighty Penryn
Boat name: Little Joe.
Make: Avon Searider
Length: 4m +
Engine: Honda BF50
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,869
The Missus prefers the Snowball hitch. It melts when the sun's out.
__________________
Mollers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12 June 2011, 17:12   #20
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Weymouth
Length: no boat
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 247
if you cant tie knots, tye lots!!!!!
__________________

__________________
I went alongside the carrier, I survived and didnt even get shot at!!!
hobbit555 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×