What knots & bends?

[gotchiguy]

Originally Posted by jyasaki

Alpine Butterfly Loop | How to tie the Alpine Butterfly Loop | Climbing Knots

Like that

You will be pleased to know that my knotting skills came into practise a few moments ago...the two ends of the draw string on a sock bag had come undone. At first I tried the reef - two ends of the same rope = same diameter - to no avail. Same result with the sheet bend. Then set about making the rabbit piss round the back of the tree and there are two neat bowlines holding it together.....

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by gotchiguy

Like that

There's another way to tie it, much simpler than the animation (though you may have trouble following it by text):

Take the line, and twist it into a loop (for simplicity, let's leave the loop below the two horizontal running lines at the top.) Twist the loop again, giving you a doubled twist at the intersection. Now for the tricky (to describe) part: Open the center section of the doubled twist, creating the two running lines, an intersection, an opening, the second intersection, and the remainder of the loop. While holding the bottom twist, pass the bottom of the loop up behind the whole mess, over the top, and feed it through the eye. Pull enough of the loop through to the size you want, and draw everything up.

To untie after the knot's been loaded, work the "ears" down the running lines a bit, then pull the loop back through.

jky

[Jizm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jyasaki
Alpine Butterfly Loop | How to tie the Alpine Butterfly Loop | Climbing Knots

[QUOTE=gotchiguy;405751]Like that

[QUOTE]

That's the site mentioned on page one?

[jyasaki]

Yes, first by me, in the flow of the thread.

What's your problem?

[9D280]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

probably loose the fig of 8. It's not the best stopper knot on the planet as it comes undone too easily. The only stopper knot on my RIBS is on the elephants trunk anyway so it's not something the crew need to tie regularly.

I used overhand stoppers on mine - the knot is bigger so doesn't pull through the hole & / or undo so easily.

Only time I use them "in anger" is on a dinghy sheet, and then with a foot or so of rope "free side" of the knot. The number of those knots I've seen doing what they were designed to do hard in a block with the crew scratcing at the 0.5" tail with their fingernails to retrieve the rope.....

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

If you use the RTTHH to secure a boat to say a swinging mooring it has been known to undo when there is a lot of movement (snatch in the line), much more so with modern braid on braid and double braid ropes than more traditional 3 plait or hawser laid ropes. The solutions are to ensure you have a long tail end after the half hitches and to tie some extra half hitches.

Or you could just use a know designed for that sort of repeated snatch loading - something like the Fisherman's/Anchor Bend. (In theory harder to release than a RTTHH but I've never found a problem).

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Or you could just use a know designed for that sort of repeated snatch loading - something like the Fisherman's/Anchor Bend. (In theory harder to release than a RTTHH but I've never found a problem).

Actually, I did, last year: A buddy's engine died, and the RIB was heading onto the beach. I got his bow line and tied it off to my A-Frame, using a double anchor bend (two circles and tuck the end back through.) Pulled him the several hundred yards upriver to the ramp, and the bend had tightened so much that I couldn't get anything loose. Ended up cutting the line, as current was getting to be a problem.

Looking back, there wasn't really much else I could have done other than perhaps using a slipped bend (pull a bight through rather than the entire end), but speed and security were more important at the time.

jky

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Or you could just use a know designed for that sort of repeated snatch loading - something like the Fisherman's/Anchor Bend. (In theory harder to release than a RTTHH but I've never found a problem).

I agree with Jyasaki the fisherman's is very hard to undo after it has been under load, and impossible to undo while it is under load

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

... and impossible to undo while it is under load

thats kind of the point isn't it?

[Jizm]

Originally Posted by jyasaki

Yes, first by me, in the flow of the thread.

What's your problem?

Problem? none...

Good site...just took a while to sink in

Should inagine it could be quite handy when your out on the boat if you can get it on your phone / berry etc.

[Simon B]

The key to good knot use is once you know the knot learn how to tie it very quickly. The animated site is good and there are a few versions of knots that vary greatly in the speed at which they can be tied. A "one way sheet bend" is an absolute beauty for speed. As is the crossed hands technique if you need to drop a clove hitch over something.

I'm in favour of using a small number of knots too.

Round turn and some half hitches
Bowline
figure of eight
Hunter bend (quick and easy version like a carrick bend but easier)
Clove hitch
Anglers loop knot (excellent if you need to tie a loop in bungee)
Alpine butterfly or variant of
Tying to a cleat
Cylinder sling.

[Doug Stormforce]

Originally Posted by Polwart

thats kind of the point isn't it?

Erm NO.

If thats what I wanted I would use a bowline.

[LyamGalpin]

We always teach and use the following knots:

Bowline
Figure of 8
Reef knot
Sheet Bend
Round turn and 2 half hitches.
Clove hitch (is useful but a round turn and 2 half hitches will suffice.)

However personally when I'm afloat I generally only use a bowline and a fig 8 if it's needed.

Hope that helps

Sent from my iPhone using Rib.net

[lakelandterrier]

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

Erm NO.

If thats what I wanted I would use a bowline.

But the point is that they won't - or shouldn't- undo or give under load! A RTTHH or fishermans bend by being tight around their fastened point will exert a steadytension on the line. If you use a bowline, the slack inthe loop will result in tension coming & going & the line snatching, which you may not want (e.g. towing).

I use a bowline for many things, but not when there will be planned sustained tension on the line.

[stevelondon79]

One really handy and really common one at least on the thames is the lightermans hitch. Dead simple and useful for securing to a bollard when there's no horns or the like to tie off to. Can be finished off with a half hitch or whatever you want but the standard variant is used by the thames barges and seems to hold (as well as our 11m ribs).

Knots-guide: Lighterman's hitch

one of the best i've learnt and unties in the frost as no actual 'knot'

steve

[behavin]

round turn and 2 half hitches and double sheet bend.......keep it simple

your anchor should be shackled to chain and the anchor rope really should be spliced on....

dont EVER tie a boat with bowlines at both ends..!! tide drops or get mopped up with another boat and theres no way you can untie them once tight

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by lakelandterrier

But the point is that they won't - or shouldn't- undo or give under load!

Depends on what you're using it for. For, say, an anchor, then yes, you don't want it coming loose. For other things (as in my example above), you may want to be able to free it while some amount of load is still applied. Granted, there are other bends or knots that could be used with better release characteristics while loaded, but that is another matter. The original comment was that an anchor bend can be nearly impossible to get loose once a load has been applied.

A RTTHH or fishermans bend by being tight around their fastened point will exert a steadytension on the line. If you use a bowline, the slack inthe loop will result in tension coming & going & the line snatching, which you may not want (e.g. towing).

Not quite sure what you're saying; tension coming and going will cause snatch in the line in either case; the difference in your example is that the bowline will be subjected to a higher overall stress delta, as it will be absorbing the difference between slack and full shock, whereas the tightened hitches maintain some of the tightening force without load applied. Not sure that really makes any difference in your example though; I've never seen a bowline come loose from varying loading (at least, not in any kind of standard marine cordage.)

If you're talking line derating due to the knot, well, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish [and no, I have no idea where that particular saying came from.]

jky



I use a bowline for many things, but not when there will be planned sustained tension on the line.[/QUOTE]

[wavelength]

hmm.. glad to see someone else teaches knots. The number of new crew/skippers I see that can barely tie their own shoe laces despite having various bits of paper inc comm adv pwbt. Main things that make me pull out my few remaining bits of hair--
using just the relatively thin pins on a samson post to wrap the rope around to take all the strain instead of putting some turns round the strong main pillar of the post to take the weight and then using the horns to wrap the securing turns round
Putting rope on a cleat the wrong way round so that bit under tension is the bit on top and cannot be released under pressure
Using a knot to secure a commercial boat to anything-you can get away with that with a 6m rib but not with 50 tonnes of metal. Whatever the name of the knot it is gonna end up as a knife knot when he finds it is jammed itself tight!
Do I use a securing hitch after wrapping round a cleat? When I haven't I always end up coming back to put one on cos I dont trust it without.

[jwalker]

Originally Posted by wavelength

.... cos I dont trust it without.

Me neither.

[wavelength]

Me neither.