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Old 22 December 2007, 09:18   #81
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...npolice206.xml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...er/7006412.stm

The child had submerged underwater. Water that was approximately 2m deep, and murky.

Pond water is usually pretty murky - and it would be even more so after the struggling of the boy, and the rescue attempts of the anglers.

Have you ever tried doing a finger-tip search of the bottom of a pond/lake with minimal visibility and no SCUBA equipment? I have... but that was as part of a team of about 18 trained individuals, where we could cover a relatively large area, relatively quickly. But it's still a difficult thing to do, and very very unpleasant. How the heck are two untrained PCSO's supposed to do that?

We have no idea or not whether these PCSO's could swim, let alone be able to surface dive down to 2m.

Cheers,
WMM

P.S. Thanks Tim, I'd forgotten about those two open water awards, but they still don't cover the dangers of moving water at all - apart from the generic "it's cold, and the banks are slippery"
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Old 22 December 2007, 09:19   #82
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I ask you what fit person could ever live with doing what the PCSO . ???

Safe to say that this issue was raised at the time, their apparent lack of action to try to save any life is the issue. This was not fast water, it was still and another child went into the water to try and help. Perhaps these people will one day see they should have tried
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Old 22 December 2007, 10:25   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteminiman View Post

P.S. Thanks Tim, I'd forgotten about those two open water awards, but they still don't cover the dangers of moving water at all - apart from the generic "it's cold, and the banks are slippery"
Err a little bit more detail than that ."The award is an assessment in practical lifesaving skills that may be needed by anyone supervising or teaching or coaching programmed activity it is designed to assess the candidates knowledge of principles of Rescue , Resuscitation and Aftercare"
The activity analysis form alone covers

Site Location
Description of site
Water Conditions
Underwater Ground Composition
Local Hazards
Entries and Exits
Access
Shelter and Facilities
Site Legislation
Rescue Craft and Equipment

It 's all about effecting rescues and moving water is in their IE weirs sluice gates and so on . If you look at the Rescue 3 syllabus
then up to the Rescue Technician they look pretty similar.
ROSPA and RLSS UK have a joint publication Safety at Inland Water Sites ISBN 1 85088 0921
And don't forget Lifeguards also Beach Lifeguards can also operate at inland sites .
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Old 22 December 2007, 10:54   #84
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It 's all about effecting rescues and moving water is in their IE weirs sluice gates and so on . If you look at the Rescue 3 syllabus
then up to the Rescue Technician they look pretty similar.
No, I've got to disagree with you pretty strongly there. There is absolutely no comparison between what the RLSS teach in their open water awards, and what Rescue 3 teach.

Unless you've got some RLSS teaching materials that I've not... then I really think you're overselling the content of the open water awards. I'm pretty sure there's nothing in any RLSS manuals about rescues from weirs!? I agree that the dangers of weirs (and other elements) are discussed, but nothing beyond that.

Cheers,
WMM
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Old 22 December 2007, 10:55   #85
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.... another child went into the water to try and help...
The child going into help was the one that ultimately drowned.

His sister got into difficulty, the boy went into rescue her. The anglers assisted and were able to rescue the girl, but not the boy.

WMM
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Old 22 December 2007, 11:09   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteminiman View Post
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...npolice206.xml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...er/7006412.stm

The child had submerged underwater. Water that was approximately 2m deep, and murky.

Pond water is usually pretty murky - and it would be even more so after the struggling of the boy, and the rescue attempts of the anglers.

Have you ever tried doing a finger-tip search of the bottom of a pond/lake with minimal visibility and no SCUBA equipment? I have... but that was as part of a team of about 18 trained individuals, where we could cover a relatively large area, relatively quickly. But it's still a difficult thing to do, and very very unpleasant. How the heck are two untrained PCSO's supposed to do that?

We have no idea or not whether these PCSO's could swim, let alone be able to surface dive down to 2m.

Cheers,
WMM

Its hardly a finger tip search (police diver style )that was required as events showed the lads body was pulled out by a normal copper . Not exactly a small object buried in the silt was he . and at 2m deep you could feel a large object with your feet then reach down and retrieve it.

In this day of every propfessional body being required to do a risk assesment the police failed by sending these 2 PCSO's out alone in an outdoor area . Iam surprised they could even ride a pushbike .
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Old 22 December 2007, 11:28   #87
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I stand corrected by whiteminiman, fair play, but I cannot excuse anyone who fails to try. It appears to me there is an immense amount of training to qualify for any of the rescue teams at whatever level.
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Old 22 December 2007, 11:44   #88
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Quote:
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Its hardly a finger tip search (police diver style )that was required as events showed the lads body was pulled out by a normal copper . Not exactly a small object buried in the silt was he . and at 2m deep you could feel a large object with your feet then reach down and retrieve it.

In this day of every propfessional body being required to do a risk assesment the police failed by sending these 2 PCSO's out alone in an outdoor area . Iam surprised they could even ride a pushbike .
Ian I think you are being totally unfair to two PCSOs getting paid diddly squat and who wouldn't be expected to stop a mugger running away... not wanting to get political but they are jumped up park wardens. Had the news reports been that a traffic warden or site security guard hadn't jumped in I don't think the reaction would be the same. It is because in some way we expect these people to act like policemen even though they are not trained, paid or empowered to behave like policemen. (Although actually I would never "expect" an ordinary PC to jump in, although equally I wouldn't be surprised if they did).

It doesn't look like what I would normally call a pond - more like a small fishing lake. The bottom is quite possibly full of all sorts of unexpected hazards like shopping trolleys too. They also have no knowledge of the depth or the potential hazards that might be there.

Are you abnormally tall? I have never met anyone who could breath (unassisted) whilst standing in 2m of water.

I think the fact that someone (even if it was another child) did drown (despite members of the public's attempts to rescue them) whilst trying to save another indicates that this wasn't as simple a rescue as you are suggesting.
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Old 22 December 2007, 12:20   #89
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The news reports and pictures give no reason to suspect any dificulties as you describe Polwart . Surely if there were that would have been included in the report to help ease public opinion.
Any able bodied person would have had a go , their job or wages should have no bearing on that decision .

This discussion had made excuses of Swift water and underwater obstacles etc etc but no such dangers are mentioned or visible in the extensive reports .
Those that had the gumption to help simply arrived too late .
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Old 22 December 2007, 13:26   #90
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As WMM has said earlier, Paul Metcalfe was a Greater Manchester firefighter who died (IIRC) in a still water incident near Rochdale. He was attempting to search for a teenager lost in (relatively) shallow water, and was secured to his colleagues on the back by a line around the waist.

The line was not kept taught enough, and became caught under a submerged tree. Ultimately, as his colleagues pulled him back to the bank, they were in fact creating an inverted pulley which pulled him under the surface of the water.

As said, this was in STILL water.

The two PCSOs did do the right thing - it sounds harsh, but in rescue there is a three tier priority - self, team, casualty. This could easily have become a "child and two rescuers dead" headline.

Never take any watercourse for granted. In floods, manholes lift and all sorts of debris can lead to an entrapment. In ponds, what looks like a shallow surface of mud can conceal sumps, buried debris, all sorts. Just ask any fire crew or coastguard mud team.

Sometimes the hardest thing to do is stand back and wait for support - after all, the compassion factor is what gets most people involved. But sometimes it's the right thing.

The two PCSOs stuck by their training - whether that training was insufficient, which I personally feel it is, is a different matter. They will no doubt ask themselves the same question for the rest of their lives - it is hardly helpful for those with (a) no rescue experience or (b) who were not there to second judge and condemn them.

Simon
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