Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 
Old 21 December 2007, 18:11   #71
RIBnet admin team
 
Poly's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Boat name: imposter
Make: FunYak
Length: 3m +
Engine: 2 stroke YAM 20 HP
MMSI: 235089819
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by ian parkes View Post
I think the situation this year 2 specials did nothing while a child drowned in a pond was about as bad as it gets .
IIRC they were community support officers not specials. Did nothing is also a little unfair - they called for help - and did exactly what they had been trained to do - not put themselves in danger. They could easily have been another "rescue service tragedy".
__________________
Poly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 December 2007, 18:25   #72
Member
 
Country: Other
Town: San Carlos, Mexico
Boat name: INDE
Make: LOMAC 730
Length: 7m +
Engine: 200 Merc.
MMSI: Please press 1
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,688
Send a message via Skype™ to Limey Linda
Reading this thread I am starting to feel very lucky here in Arizona. It may be classed as a desert but swift water rescues are very common when it rains.
All fire dept. crews are trained and they carry the right equipment. However, sometimes it is even too dangerous for them and a helo has to be used.
There is a catch however: if you have to be rescued due to your own stupidity you get to pay the total cost of your rescue. Same applies to some mountain rescues. Seems fair to me but probably would not be acceptable in the UK.
__________________

__________________
Running around like a head with it's chicken cut off.
Limey Linda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 December 2007, 18:52   #73
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: cornwall
Boat name: nothing
Make: rib eye 430
Length: 4m +
Engine: tatsu 50
MMSI: 666
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,916
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polwart View Post
IIRC they were community support officers not specials. Did nothing is also a little unfair - they called for help - and did exactly what they had been trained to do - not put themselves in danger. They could easily have been another "rescue service tragedy".

Sorry but calling for help in a situation like that is as good as doing nothing ,

I don't know the difference between comunity support and special


Limey I agree fools should pay the bill , but the UK the tax payer gets the bill , fools and oxygen thieves are the winners here
__________________
ian parkes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21 December 2007, 19:37   #74
Member
 
Country: UK - Wales
Town: Bala
Length: no boat
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 134
RLSS training - whilst very good - does not deal with moving water (apart from Beach Lifeguards, but then the sea is moving in a very different way to a river). The Bronze Medallion used to be part of basic police training, it has long since been dropped. Indeed, to work as a PCSO there is no requirement of being able to swim.

The two PCSO's did the correct thing. The child had submerged, and they had no visual confirmation where he was. They had no training. They had no equipment. What were they supposed to do? Leap in and start randomly searching under water? Even with appropriate SCUBA equipment, an underwater search for a body in swiftwater is a very very difficult and skilled thing to do.

Regardless of the level of training - if they have no accurate idea of the position of the casualty, and no equipment, then you shouldn't be getting wet. Minimum kit would be boots, a drysuit, a PFD (bouyancy aid), and a helmet.

Getting wet is almost always the last option - in any water rescue discipline.

Reach - Throw - Wade - Row - Tow - Go

that's the order that you would attempt rescues in, starting with the least dangerous, and moving to the most dangerous. (There is healthy debate at where Helo fits into that).

Cheers,
WMM
__________________
whiteminiman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 December 2007, 05:25   #75
RIBnet admin team
 
Poly's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Boat name: imposter
Make: FunYak
Length: 3m +
Engine: 2 stroke YAM 20 HP
MMSI: 235089819
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,114
Quote:
Originally Posted by ian parkes View Post
Sorry but calling for help in a situation like that is as good as doing nothing ,
I have to dispute that. As whiteminiman says they did the correct thing. It would be all too possible we would be armchair debating if they had died needlessly trying to save a (probably already dead) child.
Quote:
I don't know the difference between comunity support and special
Community support officers are employed by police forces. They have very limited powers. They have no power of arrest (but they can detain you whilst waiting for a real policeman), but can issue some fixed penalty notices. The responsibilities vary from area to area - but typically are things like fining for littering, grafiti, truancy, dog fouling, cycling on the pavement, confiscating alchohol from under 18's in public.

Effectively they are somewhere between police officers and park wardens - a bit like a traffic warden. I think those two guys got a raw deal from the tabloid media in this country who as usual managed to over sensationalise a tragic accident into being someone's fault. Out of interest if the fire service or ambulance crew had been first on scene would you expect them to have put themselves in harms way, without the appropriate equipment/training?

Specials are part time volunteer police officers (although in some areas they may be getting paid). They have the same powers as a "normal" police officer. How they are used varies from force to force - but they are commonly seen around here at football grounds, or closing off streets for marathons/parades etc. However they can be used on normal street patrols etc too.

Quote:
Limey I agree fools should pay the bill , but the UK the tax payer gets the bill , fools and oxygen thieves are the winners here
the problem is when you get charged for being rescued - you delay the calling for help - and lives will be lost or emergency services put at more risk.
__________________
Poly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 December 2007, 07:36   #76
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: cornwall
Boat name: nothing
Make: rib eye 430
Length: 4m +
Engine: tatsu 50
MMSI: 666
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,916
Sorry guys my memory of the incident and the reports in the media must be wrong. It was a while back now.
I understood the incident took place in a pond in a park or similar , anyway still water not moving (swift water)
I agree if a body has submerged in fairly fast moving water that has enough hazards to necesitate diving kit then jumping in and searching is unlikely to help especially if person doesn't have the water skills .

I do remember a radio interview with a policeman who was not happy about the lack of RLSS training in the Policeforce . It is a sad reflection on the priorities of modern society. Iam certain police officers have to learn life support and first aid skill , and that after all is a major part of the Bronze Medallion
__________________
ian parkes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 December 2007, 07:53   #77
Trade member
 
tim griffin's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Newport IoW
Boat name: Amean/Pronto/Rumbo
Make: Solent Rib Princess
Length: 7m +
Engine: 200hp Etec 260x 2
MMSI: lots of them
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteminiman View Post
RLSS training - whilst very good - does not deal with moving water (apart from Beach Lifeguards, but then the sea is moving in a very different way to a river).

The two PCSO's did the correct thing. The child had submerged, and they had no visual confirmation where he was. They had no training. They had no equipment.

Regardless of the level of training - if they have no accurate idea of the position of the casualty, and no equipment, then you shouldn't be getting wet. Minimum kit would be boots, a drysuit, a PFD (bouyancy aid), and a helmet.

Getting wet is almost always the last option - in any water rescue discipline.

Reach - Throw - Wade - Row - Tow - Go



Cheers,
WMM
The only RLSS UK awards that I can think of other than Beach Lifeguard are the Emergency Response for Outdoor Activity Supervisors .
And the Emergency Response Open Water (aimed at any one working in an open space adjacent to open water Park Rangers , Wardens and Farmers) .

The Police Bronze Medallion is still an RLSS UK award but I don't know of any one that has taught it .

But these awards don't go to the level of Swiftwater Rescue it's a specialist rescue award scheme more suited to particular inland environments the Canadian Lifesavers have a section in there Patrol Riders Syllabus for RWC but it is only very brief .

Any loss of life is tragic but you have to look at the drowning chain.

Lack of Education - Lack of Safety Advice and Protection - Lack of Supervision-Inability to Cope.

By the Children being allowed unrestricted access to the water did not help.
By the victims Ignorance or misjudgement of the Dangers did not help
Lack of Supervision at an open water site did not help
Inability of the casualty to cope with the emergency or be able to be rescued did not help.

This sort of tragedy could be avoided if schools educated the danger of water more whether its still , swift water or beach .
Also if local authorities warned of the dangers and where possible restrict access.
Then these sort of tragic incidents could be avoided.
__________________
Tim Griffin
RYA Freelance YMI power Powerboat and PWC instructor trainer vhf first aid sea survival Diesel engine radar and navigation instructor
tim griffin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 December 2007, 07:53   #78
RIBnet admin team
 
Nos4r2's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: The wilds of Wiltshire
Boat name: WhiteNoise/Dominator
Make: Ballistic 7.8/SR5.4
Length: 7m +
Engine: Opti 225/Yam 85
MMSI: 235090687/235055163
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,645
RIBase
You're right-it was still water.

PCSOs seem to be the current method of fooling us that there's actually police on the streets while spending as little as possible and being totally ineffective.

Same farce as the highway mob and sticking 'police' graphics onto the civvy contractors vehicles.
__________________
Need spares,consoles,consumables,hire,training or even a new boat?

Please click HERE and HERE and support our Trade Members.

Join up as a Trade member or Supporter HERE
Nos4r2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 December 2007, 08:03   #79
RIBnet admin team
 
Nos4r2's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: The wilds of Wiltshire
Boat name: WhiteNoise/Dominator
Make: Ballistic 7.8/SR5.4
Length: 7m +
Engine: Opti 225/Yam 85
MMSI: 235090687/235055163
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,645
RIBase
Quote:
Originally Posted by tim griffin View Post
Any loss of life is tragic but you have to look at the drowning chain.

Lack of Education - Lack of Safety Advice and Protection - Lack of Supervision-Inability to Cope.

By the Children being allowed unrestricted access to the water did not help.
By the victims Ignorance or misjudgement of the Dangers did not help
Lack of Supervision at an open water site did not help
Inability of the casualty to cope with the emergency or be able to be rescued did not help.

This sort of tragedy could be avoided if schools educated the danger of water more whether its still , swift water or beach .
Also if local authorities warned of the dangers and where possible restrict access.
Then these sort of tragic incidents could be avoided.
All very true. I doubt anything would have made a lot of difference in this case though. The mother and stepfather were vocally apportioning blame to everyone except themselves for the tragedy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...er/7006412.stm
__________________
Need spares,consoles,consumables,hire,training or even a new boat?

Please click HERE and HERE and support our Trade Members.

Join up as a Trade member or Supporter HERE
Nos4r2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22 December 2007, 08:27   #80
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: cornwall
Boat name: nothing
Make: rib eye 430
Length: 4m +
Engine: tatsu 50
MMSI: 666
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,916
Just watched that vidio and the pictures of the pond .A pond that kids obviously use as a swimming pool
I stand by what i said it was a sad situation that could have been so different .
Swift water eh .

I ask you what fit person could ever live with doing what the PCSO . ???
__________________

__________________
ian parkes is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 13:55.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.