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Old 22 December 2007, 13:33   #91
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Originally Posted by ian parkes View Post
This discussion had made excuses of Swift water and underwater obstacles etc etc but no such dangers are mentioned or visible in the extensive reports .
I have never mentioned swift water (I think it was you who introduced this case into the swift water discussion) and underwater obstacles comes from my experience sailing small dinghies in similar sized pools of water where shopping trollies were a hazard to navigation - and the risk of stepping on needles could not be discounted! As I have already said I think the media has an agenda with this
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Any able bodied person would have had a go , their job or wages should have no bearing on that decision .
Those that had the gumption to help simply arrived too late .
Well I think we will have to agree to disagree. The first people to go in the water (from my understanding) were anglers who were there before the PCSOs - and who did manage to save the girl who was at the surface. The official advice consistently issued by the emergency services is NOT to enter the water to attempt a rescue yourself but to get EXPERT help. I think that by the time the PCSOs arrived it was probably too late anyway given that the casualty was no longer visible at the surface. Getting to, locating and recovering the casualty and comencing CPR (are PCSOs even trained?) before irreprable brain damage would be unlikely even with an expert, trained rescuer.
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Old 22 December 2007, 14:23   #92
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Thought I would chime in on this one. How people act in such situations is very much dependant on the personality of the individuals present at the time of an incident. Some of us are impetuous and others are not. I have been involved in rescues ( only one water related). In all occasions I said to myself afterwards " that was a stupid thing to do" The Missus saying "you bloody idiot." Fortunately, I am still here despite my stupidity. Forunately, as I get older I seem to develop a little more smarts.
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Old 22 December 2007, 15:20   #93
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I guess given the facts we have we must just agree to having different opinions .
It only started with me asking about the new term Swift water , whoever said it and I just remembered this incident .
I know what i would have done and have done in the past. Had i and many others followed the "take no risk at all" policy there would have been a lot more deaths.
It is training and experience that makes any person faced with a quick decision act correctly , plus a great dollop of common sence . Thats where the police failed at the roots of training .
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Old 22 December 2007, 15:21   #94
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Originally Posted by tim griffin View Post

. If you look at the Rescue 3 syllabus
then up to the Rescue Technician they look pretty similar.
Not the Rescue Technician but the courses leading up to it look pretty similar to me in comparison to RLSS UK ERAS or have I missed something.



I don't think I am overselling the open water courses I am only quoting from the syllabus it does state that it is not a lifeguard award so I apologise for not mentioning that before and perhaps misleading some who have read that post.
The range statements in your National Beach Lifeguard Qualification manual state .
Coastal ,esturial,river and inland water locations all open water and that is a lifeguard award.



I have the same training manuals as you 2007 1st Edition ERAS
are you saying that If asked to teach at a site with moving water and a weir and or sluice gate was there, then you would not discuss and practice rescues techniques. Same goes for the Emergency Response Open Water which is aimed at Park Wardens , Rangers and Farmers who probably have weirs and sluice gates at their places of work.

It is discussed as you say and it is also based on site specifics .

"This is a test of competence in accident prevention , aquatic rescue ,life support and aftercare for those supervising 'known' participants on , in or near open water and /or other water users (as specified on the candidates own certificate) "
River
Lake
Canal
Sea
tick the box that relates to the training venue .

I would hope the TA Open Water or TA NBLQ delivering the course would know how to teach how to rescue someone in that type of environment safely otherwise why have such an award?? if it only covered certain types of water.

I am not talking flood rescue which is RESCUE 3 Technician Level which I think is where you strongly disagree with me perhaps, from me not making it clear with the awards leading up to Rescue Technician where I drew the comparison. I am talking supervised activities or work related incidents.
Normal Operating Procedures
Emergency action plans
All sites that have undergone a site visit and Risk Assessment and a proper plan of action put in place to minimise the risk.
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Old 22 December 2007, 15:39   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ian parkes View Post
Had i and many others followed the "take no risk at all" policy there would have been a lot more deaths.
Agreed

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Originally Posted by Polwart View Post
Getting to, locating and recovering the casualty and comencing CPR (are PCSOs even trained?) before irreprable brain damage would be unlikely even with an expert, trained rescuer.
Do a google on Mammalian Diving Reflex. It's the reason why resus in a drowning victim is never stopped until the core temperature of the body is back to normal. MDR is more pronounced in children.


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and the risk of stepping on needles could not be discounted!
Old WW2 mines are a risk as well.
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Old 22 December 2007, 17:33   #96
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Agreed
Mr Manning - do you think your ambulance service colleagues would have entered the water to attempt rescue if they had been first on scene (don't include yourself in that as you obviously have specialist knowledge of rescuing people from water)? But I do agree with both Ian and Limey's comments - people do get saved by others acting on "impulse" - although it would be wrong to suggest people are in some way inhuman for either not having that impulse or having it trained out of them.

Quote:
Do a google on Mammalian Diving Reflex. It's the reason why resus in a drowning victim is never stopped until the core temperature of the body is back to normal. MDR is more pronounced in children.
I was aware of the effect - the googling I just did was a little vague on how long it actually prolongs survival for and in what number of cases. I think most people would recognise that your chances of survival fall dramatically if you disappear below the surface without someone immediately pulling you out.

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Old WW2 mines are a risk as well.
I think you are twisting what I was trying to say. Ponds in parks (at least some of the ones I have sailed in) are unfortunately littered with all sorts of crap - including unfortunately discarded syringes.
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Old 23 December 2007, 06:44   #97
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Mr Manning
No need to be so formal. You can call me Dave if you want.

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do you think your ambulance service colleagues would have entered the water to attempt rescue if they had been first on scene
I hope they would have tried something and not stood round like lemons. People who put a uniform whether Police, Fire Ambulance, PCSO or whatever usually accept it may mean putting yourself at risk on occasion.

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I would never "expect" an ordinary PC to jump in, although equally I wouldn't be surprised if they did
Exactly!

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I think most people would recognise that your chances of survival fall dramatically if you disappear below the surface without someone immediately pulling you out.
Now you're sounding like Codprawn. I was simply pointing out that, in lots of cases, people, especially children, have recovered after prolonged immersion.


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I think you are twisting what I was trying to say.
No I wasn't. I was taking the mickey. To suggest that someone wouldn't go into the water to try and save a child in case he stepped on a needle is ridiculous.
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Old 23 December 2007, 22:15   #98
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Two chimps getting undressed for the bath, a bit worried after reading this thread.

One jumps in and shouts - ooh ooh ooh aah aah aah ooh ooh

The other says - Will I put some cold in?
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Old 24 December 2007, 10:20   #99
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Now you're sounding like Codprawn. I was simply pointing out that, in lots of cases, people, especially children, have recovered after prolonged immersion.
It should be highlighted, that the vast majority of cases where people have survived prolonged immersion (upto 66 minutes I believe is the record) has been in very very cold water... which not only stimulates the Mammilian Dive Reflex more strongly, but also the preserving effects of hypothermia (which not an awful lot is known about) are thought to assist greatly in preventing brain damage.

WMM
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