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Old 26 July 2012, 15:54   #1
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Wearing PFDs - the debate again

Just a few pics of Old Spice on our trip to the riversway festival (preston) last weekend







Leaving on sunday





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Old 26 July 2012, 16:07   #2
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Interesting to see that the RNLI are wearing there LJ's and the crew of Old Spice appear to wearing none
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Old 26 July 2012, 16:27   #3
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Interesting to see that the RNLI are wearing there LJ's and the crew of Old Spice appear to wearing none
i know poor form on my part for setting off without putting them on
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Old 27 July 2012, 00:36   #4
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i know poor form on my part for setting off without putting them on
Just ignore him, he's got nothing better to do!
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Old 27 July 2012, 03:25   #5
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Just ignore him, he's got nothing better to do!
That may be true!! but it's still a valid point.
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Old 27 July 2012, 03:59   #6
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That may be true!! but it's still a valid point.
Not really! The RNLI procedures require them to wear their lifejackets at all times. Your point would have been more interesting if they had not been wearing L/Js.

If you look at the other vessels, including the Navy ship, the yacht, the marina launch, and the narrowboat you'll notice that very few people are wearing life jackets. That's not to say it is necessarily right or wrong, but with lots of boats around presumably travelling at relatively slow speed and being driven sensibly - not lots of 'yee-ha' stuff - there is a very good argument that a Pac22 is such a safe and stable craft with its occupants sitting 'in' rather than 'on' the boat that their risk in this circumstance was very low. Indeed since its not normally necessary to move around a rib, on narrow or slippery decks its probably less likely someone slips into the water than some of those other boats.

Whilst obviously serious accidents do happen 'at sea' I think everyone I've seen or known fall off a rib or similar boat into the water has done so during launch/recovery or at a jetty or harbour etc; and yet many people on here will keep their lifejackets on board and put them on once onboard and stow them again before leaving the boat. [I know that some people and organisations will have a L/J's to be worn on the pontoons/beach rule too - but it actually being enforced or followed is more of an exception than the norm]. We don't criticise those people so I'm not sure its constructive to pick on everyone we see driving a rib without a L/J and assume there is not a rational risk assessment behind it.
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Old 27 July 2012, 04:18   #7
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On a big ship there is less chance of it setting off at a quick enough speed to send one falling over the side. On a rib, it's a lot easier to go overboard if the throttle is pushed forward by accident or the people on board are not told to hold on before opening up.
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Old 27 July 2012, 05:19   #8
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[QUOTE=Poly;478291]Not really! The RNLI procedures require them to wear their lifejackets at all times. Your point would have been more interesting if they had not been wearing L/Js.

If you look at the other vessels, including the Navy ship, the yacht, the marina launch, and the narrowboat you'll notice that very few people are wearing life jackets. That's not to say it is necessarily right or wrong, but with lots of boats around presumably travelling at relatively slow speed and being driven sensibly - not lots of 'yee-ha' stuff - there is a very good argument that a Pac22 is such a safe and stable craft with its occupants sitting 'in' rather than 'on' the boat that their risk in this circumstance was very low. Indeed since its not normally necessary to move around a rib, on narrow or slippery decks its probably less likely someone slips into the water than some of those other boats.

QUOTE]
Check the Launch again!!
So using the same argument would you advocate not using a Killcord to??
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Old 27 July 2012, 06:09   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watson32 View Post
i know poor form on my part for setting off without putting them on
This sort of subject usually gets a thread going a bit Watson sorry if I came over as picking on you that certainly is not my style mate that's why I put a whistling smilie at the end of my post and yeh.... I had nowt better to do. Welcome to RIBnet
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Old 27 July 2012, 06:19   #10
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On a big ship there is less chance of it setting off at a quick enough speed to send one falling over the side. On a rib, it's a lot easier to go overboard if the throttle is pushed forward by accident or the people on board are not told to hold on before opening up.
Its a Pac22 - whilst they are very good boats they aren't exactly bought for their stupid acceleration / top speed. I'm sure if you really try you can eject a crew member but if its driven responsibly (warning people about intentional rapid movements and being a little conservative with your driving) its relatively unlikely. Given that accidental immersion, musculoskeletal injuries from falling (on board or overboard), hitting a prop etc all are not good outcomes you need to focus on the skipper not the lifejacket. It is a piece of personal protective equipment which is the final resort when everything else fails.

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Check the Launch again!!
oops - sorry didn't see them on my crap screen first time round.
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So using the same argument would you advocate not using a Killcord to??
Firstly, I'm not advocating the absence of lifejackets, i'm advocating the right of the skipper to make his own decision based on the local circumstances and situation; and then to post his photos on the forum without fear of retribution. Personally I wear one at all times by habit.

I think it would be harder to present a good argument for not wearing a kill cord even in this situation - you need to look at the likelihood and the consequences to understand the risk. The likelihood of falling overboard is low in this circumstance, BUT the consequence of falling overboard (for a fit/health swimmer) with plenty of help around (including a d-class only a stones throw away) is more likely to be embarrassing than life threatening.

The likelihood of the skipper (and everyone else who knows how to stop the boat) being ejected is actually even lower than one person falling in but the consequences, especially in the confines of the river and with multiple craft around are much more serious and so I think it would be justified.
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Old 27 July 2012, 06:43   #11
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Its a Pac22 - whilst they are very good boats they aren't exactly bought for their stupid acceleration / top speed. I'm sure if you really try you can eject a crew member but if its driven responsibly (warning people about intentional rapid movements and being a little conservative with your driving
A Pac 22 is still a rib with tubes mid leg level and nowhere near the floor space of a big ship when standing, so a sudden movement which doesn't have to be fast can throw a person overboard if they are not expecting it. Yes the person helming the boat should warn persons on board that he is setting off, but mistakes are made and things like this do happen. Also just because other vessels are nearby doesn't necessarily stop a person from drowning (cold water shock) being one of them.
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Old 27 July 2012, 07:00   #12
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No Lifejackets? I hope they had a Passage Plan! I don't think my nerves could stand it if they didn't.

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Old 27 July 2012, 07:08   #13
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No Lifejackets? I hope they had a Passage Plan! I don't think my nerves could stand it if they didn't.

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Old 27 July 2012, 07:49   #14
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No Lifejackets? I hope they had a Passage Plan! I don't think my nerves could stand it if they didn't.

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Old 27 July 2012, 09:22   #15
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Just a few pics of Old Spice on our trip to the riversway festival (preston) last weekend
Do you need an inland waterways licence to do that trip?
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Old 27 July 2012, 10:12   #16
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I think everyone I've seen or known fall off a rib or similar boat into the water has done so during launch/recovery or at a jetty or harbour etc; .

Are you forgetting the legend that is Rogue ?
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Old 27 July 2012, 10:56   #17
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This sort of subject usually gets a thread going a bit Watson sorry if I came over as picking on you that certainly is not my style mate that's why I put a whistling smilie at the end of my post and yeh.... I had nowt better to do. Welcome to RIBnet
Haha nah its fine itís just one of them topics int it, at the end of the day we should have had them on and usually do.

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Do you need an inland waterways licence to do that trip?
No licence is needed to keep / use a boat on the Ribble, the narrow boats lock out of the Leeds Liverpool canal onto the river Douglas, and Lancaster canal onto the Ribble. They created the Ribble Link in 2000ish to allow people to cross from one canal to the other by using the river.
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Old 27 July 2012, 14:58   #18
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So using the same argument would you advocate not using a Killcord to??
The RNLI don't use kill cords
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Old 29 July 2012, 03:13   #19
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. Firstly, I'm not advocating the absence of lifejackets, i'm advocating the right of the skipper to make his own decision based on the local circumstances and situation; and then to post his photos on the forum without fear of retribution. Personally I wear one at all times by habit.
I am actually suprised it is not a legal requirement to wear a lifejacket in any fast open motorboats in the UK? Driving around when it is POSSIBLE to operate the boat while standing up in the Netherlands as well as not having lifejackets 'grab ready ' for all on board will will mean a huge fine..(and the waterrozzers DO check)
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Old 29 July 2012, 06:19   #20
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I am actually suprised it is not a legal requirement to wear a lifejacket in any fast open motorboats in the UK? Driving around when it is POSSIBLE to operate the boat while standing up in the Netherlands as well as not having lifejackets 'grab ready ' for all on board will will mean a huge fine..(and the waterrozzers DO check)
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