Transporting petrol

codprawn · 17 October 2006, 21:06

< Edit: Split from this thread http://www.rib.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16549 JK >

No he runs commercially!!!

Why not use something more sensible iff you are using that much fuel? Jerry cans are a pain - my boat takes 25 of them to fill the tanks!!!

I have aquired a 400L diesel tank off a lorry. I am putting it into a trailer that I have - fitting the tank with a proper hose/trigger unit like they use in petrol stations. Gravity feed will do the rest - will make life a lot easier and is a lot safer.

ian parkes · 17 October 2006, 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

No he runs commercially!!!

Why not use something more sensible iff you are using that much fuel? Jerry cans are a pain - my boat takes 25 of them to fill the tanks!!!

I have aquired a 400L diesel tank off a lorry. I am putting it into a trailer that I have - fitting the tank with a proper hose/trigger unit like they use in petrol stations. Gravity feed will do the rest - will make life a lot easier and is a lot safer.

I bet you have a problem filling that at the filling station .
My local Morrisons won't let me fill more than one can , so I fill them inside the side door of my transit and they are none the wiser cos it looks like Iam filling the tank . They do look confused when I have £60 of diesel at the same time as £45 of petrol.

alt · 17 October 2006, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

No he runs commercially!!!

Why not use something more sensible iff you are using that much fuel? Jerry cans are a pain - my boat takes 25 of them to fill the tanks!!!

I have aquired a 400L diesel tank off a lorry. I am putting it into a trailer that I have - fitting the tank with a proper hose/trigger unit like they use in petrol stations. Gravity feed will do the rest - will make life a lot easier and is a lot safer.

That's fine if its diesel but if it's petrol I wouldnt like to be around you when filling! If youre going down that road buy a fuel bowser. OK theyre not cheap but they are damn cool and look the part. You can get one with electric pumps etc.

codprawn · 17 October 2006, 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by alt

That's fine if its diesel but if it's petrol I wouldnt like to be around you when filling! If youre going down that road buy a fuel bowser. OK theyre not cheap but they are damn cool and look the part. You can get one with electric pumps etc.

Still safer than loads of jerry cans - I am taking all the proper precautions regarding earthing etc.

alt · 17 October 2006, 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Still safer than loads of jerry cans - I am taking all the proper precautions regarding earthing etc.

Personally i'm not bothered about PC'ness ... Just wonder what the oul bill would say if you ever went through a checkpoint...

"I say, do you get the whiff of petrol"

richardjawilson · 17 October 2006, 22:22

I get fed up with the whole jerry can thing, but in central London I have no choice, as I think the nearest unlead to me is in the Medway!! There are 3 9/10m Humbers that operate RIB rides from the Millennium wheel, and they regularly fill up with 700lts , all in jerry cans, up to 3 times a week from what I can gather.

codprawn · 17 October 2006, 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by alt

Personally i'm not bothered about PC'ness ... Just wonder what the oul bill would say if you ever went through a checkpoint...

"I say, do you get the whiff of petrol"

Neither am I just know what lot's of petrol can do!!! I am far more worried about static than I am about the police pulling me!!!

Poly · 17 October 2006, 23:10

Cod - do you have somewhere you can fill this? will the marina/harbour let you use it alongside? with your plans to reclaim duty on the fuel I would have thought you would be attracting enough questions from officialdom without raising the "and how do you get the 300 L of fuel to your boat, sir" issue. So now you will have the HSE sniffing round your opperation too. If you are determined to do it - I would investigate doing it legally. Might not be as complex as you think.

codprawn · 17 October 2006, 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polwart

Cod - do you have somewhere you can fill this? will the marina/harbour let you use it alongside? with your plans to reclaim duty on the fuel I would have thought you would be attracting enough questions from officialdom without raising the "and how do you get the 300 L of fuel to your boat, sir" issue. So now you will have the HSE sniffing round your opperation too. If you are determined to do it - I would investigate doing it legally. Might not be as complex as you think.

But it will be legal - mate runs a transport company knows all the regs - he gave me the tank.

Filling from Jerry cans is a dodgy propostition at best. I use a filter funnel and a jiggle syphon and yet I still manage to spill loads. Using a proper nozzle with an earthed pipe has to be a better bet???

John Kennett · 18 October 2006, 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by richardjawilson

There are 3 9/10m Humbers that operate RIB rides from the Millennium wheel, and they regularly fill up with 700lts , all in jerry cans, up to 3 times a week from what I can gather.

I'd be interested to know how they manage that legally!

John

codprawn · 18 October 2006, 10:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kennett

I'd be interested to know how they manage that legally!

John

Probably the same as everyone else = why should it be illegal?

Apparently though it IS illegal for a petrol station to dispense more than 10L at once into a can - so you would have to 1/2 fill it - go in and pay - then come back out and put in the other 10L - BARKING!!!

Jono · 18 October 2006, 11:13

Reading this is interesting... the power of Google and an idle mind...

http://www.hse-databases.co.uk/lau/lacs/65-9.htm

John Kennett · 18 October 2006, 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono

Reading this is interesting... the power of Google and an idle mind...

http://www.hse-databases.co.uk/lau/lacs/65-9.htm

At a glance it looks like that has been superceded in the workplace by Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002 http://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosi...background.htm

There's also The Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road Regulations 1996 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19962095_en_1.htm

Then you need to find a filling station that can fill your truck load of 25 litre jerry cans without breaching the terms of its licence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Probably the same as everyone else = why should it be illegal?

Because as far as I can tell "everyone else" just fills up a load of jerrycans (possibly in breach of the filling stations licence, but not an offence in itself) and loads them into the back of a Land Rover, almost certainly not in compliance with CDGR.

There may be some RIB (or other boat) operators using appropriate, properly marked vehicles with qualified drivers to move their petrol, but I don't know of any . . .

Quote:

Apparently though it IS illegal for a petrol station to dispense more than 10L at once into a can - so you would have to 1/2 fill it - go in and pay - then come back out and put in the other 10L - BARKING!!!

Don't confuse the HSE storage regulations with the local authority licencing conditions . . .

John

CJL · 18 October 2006, 12:35

Becareful carrying lots of fuel in jerry cans. As JK points out the Carridge of Dangerous Goods or ADR regulates (you know those orange plate on trucks??)carrying more than I think 70litres of petrol (not including the vehicles tank). Beside breaking the law, its kinda dangerous and expensive!

The police are getting hot on this kind of stuff now cause it ties in to terrorism and stop checks can be done by VOSA (Vehicle Operator Services Agency) without a police constable doing the stopping now!

Chris

Jono · 18 October 2006, 13:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kennett

At a glance it looks like that has been superceded in the workplace by Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations 2002 http://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosi...background.htm

Doesn't apply to "private peeps"...

there is work being carried out by an employer (or self employed person);

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kennett

There's also The Carriage of Dangerous Goods by Road Regulations 1996 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1996/Uksi_19962095_en_1.htm

Doesn't apply to "private peeps"...

3. These Regulations shall not apply to or in relation to the carriage of dangerous goods in—
(a) a vehicle which is not being used for, or in connection with, work;

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kennett

... almost certainly not in compliance with CDGR.

....again....

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kennett

There may be some RIB (or other boat) operators using appropriate, properly marked vehicles with qualified drivers to move their petrol, but I don't know of any . . .Don't confuse the HSE storage regulations with the local authority licencing conditions . . .

John

So, in conclusion...? Operators and Schools need to get their acts together.. the rest of us can carry on driving around in potential fire bombs... Yeeha!

Poly · 18 October 2006, 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono

Doesn't apply to "private peeps"...

there is work being carried out by an employer (or self employed person);

Doesn't apply to "private peeps"...

3. These Regulations shall not apply to or in relation to the carriage of dangerous goods in—
(a) a vehicle which is not being used for, or in connection with, work;

....again....

So, in conclusion...? Operators and Schools need to get their acts together.. the rest of us can carry on driving around in potential fire bombs... Yeeha!

Which was essentially my point to Codprawn - if he is claiming the duty back from the fuel on the basis that it is being used commercially then he must be transporting that same fuel as a commercial opperation.

Cod - I didn't say you couldn't do it. What I said was it would be worth doing it legally. As a commercial organisation moving this sort of quantity of petrol I would have thought (I'm not up to speed on the latest rules and exceptions) this means you might need Hazchem plates on the trailer, a couple of fire extinguishers, wheel chocks etc. which the DG by road rules expect.

Poly · 18 October 2006, 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Filling from Jerry cans is a dodgy propostition at best. I use a filter funnel and a jiggle syphon and yet I still manage to spill loads. Using a proper nozzle with an earthed pipe has to be a better bet???

I'm not doubting the common sense - just a lot of work getting your "bowser" set up, safe and legal to discover (1) no one will let you fill it OR (2) no one will let you fill the boat with it.

quinquarimarine · 19 October 2006, 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono

So, in conclusion...? Operators and Schools need to get their acts together.. the rest of us can carry on driving around in potential fire bombs... Yeeha!

For reasons of our own pax business and also the companies that we supply/advise we have studied this well but also called in HSE to inspect our operation.

Conclusion is that it is legal to transport up to 220litres. There are many points but as a guide.

1. Use approved containers.
2. Containers must be in sep. compartment from driver eg. pick up/trailer.
3. Do not confuse storage with transport.... dont leave you truck parked up full of cans on the highway.
4. Max that can be transported is 220 litres.

The fueling operation then need sound mangement and we advise.

1. Truck has daily/monthly and yearly checks just as you would with a PSV. Remember the greatest risk is an RTA so reducing this risk is no. 1.
2. Truck is cleay marked with DG warning triangles. Cans also marked.
3. Auto fire extingushers fitted to truck. Manual ones also inside cab.
4. Cans are checked on a monthly basis by our workshop ... all these checks logged.
5. Limit to any can being 25kg for lifting HSE issues.
6. We have a company training prog. for fuel handlers and an internal exam that they must sit each year before being able to do that job.
7. A thorough RA plan on the proceedure following everything from earthing to leaving empty (fume filled) cans on the quay. The plan must also show a system of audit. Include everything from smoking/spill proceedures/dermatitis from fuel splash etc and make sure truck has suitable equipment on board. Not as difficult to do as sounds.

With regards to Cod Prawns idea then a professional approach would be to contact Fuel Proof who make dedicated bowsers and are hopeful to get the first such legal tank on the road soon. I am aware of a commercial operator who used a similar (CP) tank and is currently being prosectuted.

Same old story in that if you do it commercial then you have to throw good money at it and do it right. We supplied and advised the London Operation as mentioned and that has also been audited.

To throw a spanner in the works do remember that diesel is now under DG regs !

And CP, if you can afford the 400 litres then surely you can afford to settle the gesture that is long overdue or maybe we should leave that to another thread oneday !

Cheers

John
www.quinquarimarine.co.uk

codprawn · 19 October 2006, 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by quinquarimarine

And CP, if you can afford the 400 litres then surely you can afford to settle the gesture that is long overdue or maybe we should leave that to another thread oneday !

Cheers

John
www.quinquarimarine.co.uk

I have been trying to find the time to pop down to see you - I keep tripping over them but none of the bottles have smashed yet - anyway I thought they improve with age.....

fred bolton · 20 October 2006, 06:59

Why not stick the boat on a trailer and fill her up at the petrol station?

If he did that, is it legal to have more than 220 litres in her?