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Old 31 August 2015, 16:50   #21
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Sorry....someone has to say it....Ten people in a six meter boat ?
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Old 31 August 2015, 16:54   #22
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Sorry....someone has to say it....Ten people in a six meter boat ?
Yes - and on that note, I should say that later reports just refer to it as a GRP boat. I'd heard it called a RIB in earlier SAR reports. So I dunno....
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Old 31 August 2015, 17:17   #23
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In which case virtually no means of requesting help would make any difference, short of a second boat on your side ready to fish you out the water...
OK so you did get my point!

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So 90 minutes is reasonable,
I seem to recall MustRib was bobbing around for a couple of hours, in an area well within normal rescue service coverage. It takes time for the message to get passed to Falmouth > Local MRCC > Check if real > Request resource > Mobilise resource... talking about average flight times is meaningless.

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...tell me you wouldn't want a PLB in your pocket.
I think you've intentionally misunderstood what I said. The words I questioned were: "... PLB a must" not PLB's are a good idea, or useful (especially for 9hr remote trips!). Indeed if you read, I said exactly that. But I'll say again:

If we tell ourselves that the outcome would have been better for ourselves because of our extra gadgets we are probably missing the opportunity to learn from not ending up with ten unexpected swimmers in the first place.

AND

I wonder whether our obsession with electronic tools to get us out of bother makes us complacent about the basic seamanship in the first place.

Whether that is where you take the boat, how you load it, how you drive it, how you forecast the weather, etc. At the end of the day if you capsize a boat with 10 people in it offshore at 7pm you'll be lucky if it turns out to be just a bit embarrassing and an insurance claim no matter what tools you have with you.
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Old 31 August 2015, 17:21   #24
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Yes - and on that note, I should say that later reports just refer to it as a GRP boat. I'd heard it called a RIB in earlier SAR reports. So I dunno....
A report I read this evening said they were angling and on their way home when a wheelhouse window broke and they took on water from a "huge wave" not giving them time to make a distress call before it rolled. That all seems very specific to be made up, and given that there aren't many 6m wheelhouse ribs with space for 10 people never mind to fish, I think we can assume it was a hardboat.
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Old 31 August 2015, 17:55   #25
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I seem to recall MustRib was bobbing around for a couple of hours, in an area well within normal rescue service coverage. It takes time for the message to get passed to Falmouth > Local MRCC > Check if real > Request resource > Mobilise resource... talking about average flight times is meaningless.
I quoted average and maximums.

In MustRib's case there was no GPS lock for a substantial period of time. Presumably positional, accompanied by never having had a GPS fix so needing to download the almanac which requires a steady signal for a period of time. There are TWO messages - first message is instantaneous to ?Spain, with no position. That would be passed virtually straight away to Falmouth based on its registration. Falmouth has no location at that point for it but can start the "Check If Real" I'd expect my shore contact to be able to say:
- It could very well be real - he's on the water today.
- He is in Area X, Transiting from A to B departing HH:MM expected to arrive HH:MM. My HEX No is linked to my CG66, my Shore contact could confirm I was aboard my usual craft.
- I'd then expect a VHF contact to be attempted, presumably with no response if I've had to resort to the PLB. At that stage I'd expect CG to be requesting launch.
- I'd expect to by then have got a GPS fix, and be updating that fix every few minutes (think mine is every 5 minutes)

As I recall that was how it worked for the guys on the Fastnet a couple of years back who snapped their keel.

--

It appears the boat had a wheelhouse because a "freak wave" (you know those freak waves that newspapers seem to report so often they aren't that freak) apparently broke through the wheelhouse. - So it almost certainly wasn't a 6m RIB with a wheelhouse.
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Old 01 September 2015, 03:01   #26
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So it almost certainly wasn't a 6m RIB with a wheelhouse.
Almost certainly.

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Old 02 September 2015, 05:41   #27
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Has Ribbing become more dangerous than ten yrs ago (when only the most serious cruises/adventures would consider a PLB)? I've not dug into any detail but it's quite likely the outcome would have been similar with a PLB, albeit resolved quicker; but more traditional tools like a light, a handheld vhf, or a more proactive shore contact might all have achieved the same.

I wonder whether our obsession with electronic tools to get us out of bother makes us complacent about the basic seamanship in the first place.

I can see scenarios where a PLB won't help, (e.g. wearer incapacitated, broken/lost on Impact, simply forgotten or left on wrong jacket inside the boat). Does the shore contact assume for longer that all must be OK if you haven't called the cavalry yourself?

I think PLBs are incredibly useful tools and when it next comes to splashing out on more pyros it might be a serious consideration BUT I don't think I would consider it a *must* have for most leisure boating, the way most of us would with life jackets or kill cords.

If we tell ourselves that the outcome would have been better for ourselves because of our extra gadgets we are probably missing the opportunity to learn from not ending up with ten unexpected swimmers in the first place.

All IMHO of course.
As far as I'm concerned it's a tool that I hope to never use but carry with me to improve the probability of a yellow helicopter turning up if the worst happens. It doesn't - ever - mean that I do something that I wouldn't have done if I hadn't had it with me.
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Old 02 September 2015, 09:47   #28
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Condolences to the family involved in what must have been a terrifying ordeal.

Poly raises some interesting points.
Maybe he is making a comment on the standard of seamanship he has observed recently?
When I spoke with ACR last year, they had expressed a concern about a perception that the PLB
was a hot line to Rescue and users were being careless with their own preparations
...marginal water for the hike, marginal fuel for the return trip of the voyage etc.

However I would disagree with his conjecture about "reliance on electronic tools".
I think he is right - ribbing hasnt become anymore dangerous in the last 10 years,
but in the last 10 years the price of beacons has fallen,
and the more informed and regular boaters are taking the opportunity to acquire one.
Why wouldn't you ?
If your next car came in two models, one with an airbag and one without, and only 200 difference,
would you pick the one without because it would be missing the opportunity to improve your driving?
Equally would you pick the one with the airbag so you could drive irresponsibly?

All the safety kit is there because if we need it we would use it, personally speaking,
I dont alter my boat driving style or take questionable decisions,
because I have a PLB attached to me. If they can afford to buy one,
I would never dissuade anyone from taking a PLB on the water with them,
whatever level of training or capability they had.

Certainly Poly is correct in his assertion that there are scenarios where a PLB would not help,
but it should never be the sole constituent of your emergency kit
and your plan should not revolve around only one communication device.

Maybe the route of the problem lies in training, and new boaters being prepared to get some,
and experienced boaters being willing to get more.
Understandng risk, understanding what happens when it goes wrong and how you can help yourself
and shedding the mentality that nothing will happen to me, and overestimating your own capabilities to rescue yourself.
Your in the boat, or out of the boat. Its upside down, or its not. Its on fire or its not. Your engine works, it doesn't.
Maybe I missed some other scenarios, but preparing for the above while on land is good seamanship.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Poly View Post
Has Ribbing become more dangerous than ten yrs ago (when only the most serious cruises/adventures would consider a PLB)? I've not dug into any detail but it's quite likely the outcome would have been similar with a PLB, albeit resolved quicker; but more traditional tools like a light, a handheld vhf, or a more proactive shore contact might all have achieved the same.

I wonder whether our obsession with electronic tools to get us out of bother makes us complacent about the basic seamanship in the first place.

I can see scenarios where a PLB won't help, (e.g. wearer incapacitated, broken/lost on Impact, simply forgotten or left on wrong jacket inside the boat). Does the shore contact assume for longer that all must be OK if you haven't called the cavalry yourself?

I think PLBs are incredibly useful tools and when it next comes to splashing out on more pyros it might be a serious consideration BUT I don't think I would consider it a *must* have for most leisure boating, the way most of us would with life jackets or kill cords.

If we tell ourselves that the outcome would have been better for ourselves because of our extra gadgets we are probably missing the opportunity to learn from not ending up with ten unexpected swimmers in the first place.

All IMHO of course.
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Old 02 September 2015, 15:41   #29
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one with an airbag and one without, and only 200 difference,
You do know I'm Scottish don't you?
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Old 02 September 2015, 16:32   #30
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You do know I'm Scottish don't you?
ok... suppose you could borrow a new car ....
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