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Old 25 March 2007, 14:39   #51
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Originally Posted by codprawn View Post
Anyway I give up - most of you would obviously rather attack me than try to have a rational discussion on safety.
At last you've got something right
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Old 26 March 2007, 04:42   #52
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I had a similar discussion about diving a few months ago. Specifically, about training, and practicing emergency procedures. That degenerated into a list of emergency equipment that one should carry on a dive.

One person insisted his students learn how to deal with a failure that, as far as he and I know, has never occured (both second stages packing up, requiring him to remove the BC, turn off tank, somehow purge the system, remove first stage, and then surface breathing off the tank valve. He saw it as a reasonable exercise, because "if that happened to you, you'd be dead if you didn't know how to do this." Truth be told, I'd be dead if it happened and I did know how to do that.

Another dove with a handheld GPS and VHF in case he got lost. (not a bad idea for offshore stuff, but this guy was diving in a bay, off the beach. Seemed like overkill to me.)

Point is, you can't be prepared for all emergencies. If you try, you soon find that you have immobilised yourself from the weight of safety gear, or that you are worrying so much about what *might* happen that you never enjoy what is happening.

jky
Go and find the instructor and tell him to stop teaching shit if your first and second stage both failed your tank would be empty of air anyway due to fact that both stages are one way valves I would like to see him do that in Dorothea Quarry at thirty metres and then see how he gets on
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Old 26 March 2007, 06:09   #53
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Originally Posted by Milan View Post
Go and find the instructor and tell him to stop teaching shit if your first and second stage both failed your tank would be empty of air anyway due to fact that both stages are one way valves I would like to see him do that in Dorothea Quarry at thirty metres and then see how he gets on
That'll be the shallow end of Dorothea then...I thought they'd closed her anyway?

I do agree that teaching emergency procedure for both 2nd stages failing is complete rot - it is possible for a DV to fail closed though...and so long as there IS air in the tank it is quite possible to breath of a free-flow. At the end of the day, that's why you always dive with a buddy - the chances of all 4 DVs failing has to be next to zero. Better off to train proper dive dicipline and buddy breathing techniques.

Proper training is essential though - it helps prevent panic (which, at least when I trained, was reconned to be the biggest killer amongst novice divers). It makes a massive difference when the unexpected or unusual does happen.

WRT the original point of the thread, I can see both arguments (and I do think some of the reactions were WAY OTT.) Yes, swimming in a lifejacked is extremely hard work, but at least you can stop for a rest. I always wear one, but insist on manual inflate, so I suppose that's wrong too? The idea of keeping fins (not flippers!) on board sounds reasonable to me, although they do tend to sink, there would be nothing to stop you attaching some form of bouyancy to them. Finning on your back with an inflated lifejacket couldn't by any easier IMO.

Mugshot - I recon you could wear all the safety gear in the world and you'd still get a massive buzz from RIBing. I still get a buzz on my bike and I wear full leathers, crash lid and armoured gloves, but I know its still going to hurt if I part company with my steed...
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Old 26 March 2007, 09:31   #54
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Seems like I am NOT the only person to criticise the MAIB - I have seen a few articles in the boating press lately saying the same sort of thing - that the MAIB have their own agenda and word their reports accordingly.

There is an article in the latest RIB International which also questions an MAIB report.

Also a great write up on Nauti Buoy!!!
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Old 26 March 2007, 12:25   #55
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Go and find the instructor and tell him to stop teaching shit if your first and second stage both failed your tank would be empty of air anyway due to fact that both stages are one way valves I would like to see him do that in Dorothea Quarry at thirty metres and then see how he gets on
I would, but he's on the opposite coast (I think. Might have been in the Great Lakes, which is only 2/3 of the way across the US.)

The argument was carried on on the diving section of a forum similar to this one.

My main argument was that if both 2nd stages failed, but you still had pressure in the tank with the tank valve open, you'd never get the 1st stage off the tank anyway. But enough about that.

Sixy; there are arguments for and against either auto or manual inflate, and both have merits. I'm not going to go there. I will say it's better to have either than none, though.

jky
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Old 26 March 2007, 12:27   #56
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There is an article in the latest RIB International which also questions an MAIB report.
What did the article say?

jky
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Old 26 March 2007, 13:15   #57
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What did the article say?

jky
It is about a separate incident altogether. In brief: rib accident where occupants thrown from boat). MAIB imply alchohol was a causative factor (which RI disputed), and that the crew should both have been wearing life jackets (as opposed to buoyancy aids). 1 man died (wearing a lifejacket - man. inflation - not activated) and another survived (wearing a buoyancy aid).

Understandably RI questioned the appropriateness of the claim that a lifejacket was more suitable (accident in the solent) especially since the survivor was the one NOT wearing the full lifejacket. The author of the RI article also expressed concern that there was insufficient investigation of why the killcord did not work as intended.

When I read the RI article I got the feeling that the author had a chip on his shoulder (that may be down to the journalistic style rather than anything else). Although I would agree that lifejacket/killcord issues were poorly adressed by the MAIB.

I think the MAIB report was discussed here before.
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Old 26 March 2007, 14:12   #58
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Mugshot - I recon you could wear all the safety gear in the world and you'd still get a massive buzz from RIBing. I still get a buzz on my bike and I wear full leathers, crash lid and armoured gloves, but I know its still going to hurt if I part company with my steed...
I think I may have been a little misunderstood, apologies if I was.
I wasnt suggesting that the way to gain maximum enjoyment from ribbing was to wear a minimum of safety equipment. Any boating and more particularly ribbing can and does carry some risk (same as riding a motorbike), but that is or can be at least some of the attraction. If I could afford every possible piece of safety equipment I would have it and it would not affect my enjoyment one bit, however I cant afford it, but I do ensure that I have a fixed VHF, a handheld VHF, a life jacket for everyone on board, flares and a well maintained boat.
I wasn't suggesting you need a minimum of safety equipment to enjoy yourself, I was suggesting there should be a minimum level of safety equipment required before you leave shore.
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Old 26 March 2007, 15:54   #59
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Thanks, Polwart. I had no idea what Codders was talking about. Rib International is not, unfortunately, available on every newsstand around here.

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Old 26 March 2007, 16:10   #60
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Thanks, Polwart. I had no idea what Codders was talking about. Rib International is not, unfortunately, available on every newsstand around here.

jky
Sorry about that - it's not that easy to find here either!!!
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