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Old 23 March 2007, 14:28   #31
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id draw the line in the situation just before falling in the sea without one and then realising I - could - have been wearing one.
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Old 23 March 2007, 14:31   #32
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Originally Posted by three-rex View Post
Might be harder to swim with a lifejacket on, but it's a ffff-sight easier to sink without one!

Sounds like they both got very tired and at some point, both of them went under, rescusitated once, and failed the second - with a life jacket, the submergence wouldn't have happened.
At last a rational response and not just an attack!!!

Very good points but what people often don't realise is that the cold usually kills someone before you drown. Even in our waters in June. In the depths of winter it is even more likely. The bloke who survived came very close to death himself - another hour could have made all the difference - lifejacket wouldn't have been much use then.
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Old 23 March 2007, 14:44   #33
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Why not keep a VHF handy, why not go to sea in a boat that doesnt have knackered bilge pumps and knackered non return valves and knackered wiring and dirty great holes in the deck, and out of date flares!! The boat was sinking before they left port!


I hope none of the families concerned are reading this. For a start the boat was NOT sinking before it left port!!!

Secondly the "dirty great holes" were actually missing bolts from the A frame which the crew probably didn't realise were so vital - it was these holes that allowed water from the too low deck to get into the hold - this caused a loss of what little stability the boat had.

The problem was the boat had been built overweight and the freeboard was lower than intended. As far as the men were concerned they paid good money for a "proper" fishing boat.

They set out on a nice day in their new boat very close to land - who can blame them for being a bit over eager?

You mention "out of date flares" - shock horror. For a start flares can last way past their sell by date - secondly even if they had bought a massive offshore pack they would never have got to use them as they were stuck in the cabin anyway.
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Old 23 March 2007, 14:48   #34
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Anyway I give up - most of you would obviously rather attack me than try to have a rational discussion on safety.
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Old 23 March 2007, 15:46   #35
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Originally Posted by codprawn View Post
At last a rational response and not just an attack!!!

Very good points but what people often don't realise is that the cold usually kills someone before you drown. Even in our waters in June. In the depths of winter it is even more likely. The bloke who survived came very close to death himself - another hour could have made all the difference - lifejacket wouldn't have been much use then.
I agree that cold kills and is probably the main danger after trying to remain afloat. But... by actively swimming you are going to drop your core temperature much faster and therefore hasten the onset of hypothermia. It is pretty difficult to swim in a lifejacket, but it will keep you afloat and maintain an airway if you are unconscious. In many situations when out at sea, you are not going to be able to swim anywhere meaningful. That is why the HELP postion and staying with an upturned boat/wreckage (preferably out of the water and on top of it) or with the other survivors are preached in the various sea survival courses. I'm not denying that there may be situations where swimming for it may make sense, but they are not as likely as the requirement to stay put and wait for help. But that is a powerful reason for flares & spare H/held VHF on your l'jacket belt...

So generally, as accidents are accidents and you can't predict them, IMHO I would always I would wear a lifejacket.

Useful debate though, so thanks for starting it Codders.

t
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Old 23 March 2007, 16:33   #36
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Anyway I give up - most of you would obviously rather attack me than try to have a rational discussion on safety.
I would quite happily have a rational discussion on safety, however i maintain that your express intention when starting this thread was to accuse the MAIB of sexing up a report.
I also hope that no members of the family read this thread, to see that someone is suggesting that their loved one may have survived had he had a pair of flippers would be unthinkable.
You claim to have read the report on numerous occasions, may I suggest if that is the case you either stop ignoring the conclusions and recommendations detailed by the MAIB or at least read them properly.
Also, your post above appears to be quoting my previous post in a way which suggests my angry faces refer to the condition of the Pamela. You have conveniently left out my response to your astonishing comment about David Walliams, I like spin as much as the next man, but I believe you are more than a little out of order with what you appear to be insinuating on this occasion.

For the record I think carrying your mobile in a plastic bag is a perfectly resonable idea. I am far more convinced however that in the first instance you should ensure that the safety equipment which is specifically designed for marine use is present, maintained correctly and in good working order and most importantly, used.

Now would you like to wind your neck in and have a discussion on safety, or are you going to keep throwing your toys out of your pram?
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Old 23 March 2007, 17:32   #37
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I would quite happily have a rational discussion on safety, however i maintain that your express intention when starting this thread was to accuse the MAIB of sexing up a report.
I also hope that no members of the family read this thread, to see that someone is suggesting that their loved one may have survived had he had a pair of flippers would be unthinkable.
You claim to have read the report on numerous occasions, may I suggest if that is the case you either stop ignoring the conclusions and recommendations detailed by the MAIB or at least read them properly.
Also, your post above appears to be quoting my previous post in a way which suggests my angry faces refer to the condition of the Pamela. You have conveniently left out my response to your astonishing comment about David Walliams, I like spin as much as the next man, but I believe you are more than a little out of order with what you appear to be insinuating on this occasion.

For the record I think carrying your mobile in a plastic bag is a perfectly resonable idea. I am far more convinced however that in the first instance you should ensure that the safety equipment which is specifically designed for marine use is present, maintained correctly and in good working order and most importantly, used.

Now would you like to wind your neck in and have a discussion on safety, or are you going to keep throwing your toys out of your pram?
If you maintain that I started this thread JUST to accuse the MAIB there is no point in taking this any further.
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Old 23 March 2007, 17:37   #38
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For the record I think carrying your mobile in a plastic bag is a perfectly resonable idea.
I agree. It's having the phone in a pocket unprotected that I disagreed with, (especially when we're talking about RIBsters and working mariners for whom getting wet is a pretty common occurence.) From experience (two, actually) I can attest that cell phones and water do not play nice together (and the water usually wins.)

For the record, I would suggest getting something better than the kitchen ziplock bag, though. Though they do a pretty good job of keeping liquids in, they're not stellar at keeping liquids out.

There are very heavy ziplock type bags that are designed for this type of use, or a pretty wide variety of clamshell cases that are advertised as being submersible, at least to some degree.

jky
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Old 23 March 2007, 17:47   #39
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Aquapac for me, waterproof and it floats

It gets bashed around a bit so it will not last forever but I check it for bubbles in the sink every so often and it is still OK. At twenty quid it is cheaper than any new phone so mine goes in it every time out... though when they say you can use the phone in the pac, they are stretching it a bit, you can, but you can't hear very much and apparently it sounds to the other person like you are talking through a duvet.

I now have the aquapacced phone round my neck, and a waterproof VHF clipped to my lifejacket, both of which seem to me to make sense on an open boat in case you fall in the oggin.
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Old 23 March 2007, 18:02   #40
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I agree. It's having the phone in a pocket unprotected that I disagreed with, (especially when we're talking about RIBsters and working mariners for whom getting wet is a pretty common occurence.) From experience (two, actually) I can attest that cell phones and water do not play nice together (and the water usually wins.)
You're absolutely right jky, I think having the mobile is fine and dandy so long as you understand that it is at best a back up to the more recognised safety equipment.
The difference is also in this instance the fact that, as has already been pointed out, mobiles and harsh working environments don't usually mix well.
It is imperative to treat the sea with the utmost respect, codprawn says he issues all his passengers with bags for their phones just in case, yet in other instances you see people apparently arguing the merits of not wearing a life jacket or complaining that their human rights would be infringing if they were not allowed to skipper their boat after an extended session at the pub.
How often are the RNLI or others called out or have their work made even harder due to people being inadequately prepared?
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