Tragedy at Padstow - 5 May 2013 - Page 23

chris.moody · 19 November 2014, 06:45

Really they should manufacture a dual killcord, one plastic fitting for the switch but two curly leads. That way helm 2 can attach before helm 1 detaches if swapping helms.

That would not help my berthing scenario where I am a long way from the helm getting fenders out of lockers, but it's generally calmer seas and shallow enough to anchor in that instance, so a dead engine is only an inconvenience rather than a danger.

Poly · 19 November 2014, 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris.moody

Really they should manufacture a dual killcord, one plastic fitting for the switch but two curly leads. That way helm 2 can attach before helm 1 detaches if swapping helms.

You can already diy this solution (as the rya recommend when training children) but it doesn't help do what Simon wants which is have the kc permanently attached to life jackets to prevent forgetfulness. it would be theoretically possible to have two kill switches wired in so you can connect one before removing the other one but it introduces other risks.

John Kennett · 19 November 2014, 07:18

I like that idea, and it's a modification that I'd seriously consider.

Unfortunately I can see it being counterproductive if it became mainstream as anyone less inclined to use a kill cord wouldn't even need to have the annoying bit of red curly stuff dangling in the breeze!

Poly · 19 November 2014, 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kennett

I like that idea, and it's a modification that I'd seriously consider.

Unfortunately I can see it being counterproductive if it became mainstream as anyone less inclined to use a kill cord wouldn't even need to have the annoying bit of red curly stuff dangling in the breeze!

If you really don't want a kc dangling you only need a pair of scissors...

chris.moody · 19 November 2014, 07:27

I teach PB2 on a rib with dual kill switches. Pulling either will kill the engine. That setup would work perfectly in the swapping helms scenario, but I have only ever seen it on ribs used for teaching (and the Honda Youth Rib Challenge boats but in those the 2nd kill switch is forward of the console for the person crouched in the bow area).

chris.moody · 19 November 2014, 07:29

Some remote throttles come with a spare kill switch plastic bit (no curly lead) stored in a purpose built slot

gtb · 19 November 2014, 09:01

Don't you want it wired so either switch (rather than both) keeps the engine running? i.e. Helm 1 is on one switch with engine running, then Helm 2 comes along plugs into second switch, and the first helm pulls chord and walks away. Engine stays running all the time, unless both chords are tugged. Only one is chord is usually connected at a time apart from during changeover, when it requires both people to be thrown to stop engine.

chris.moody · 19 November 2014, 09:06

The one I use needs both to be plugged in for the engine to run. Means I can kill the power at any time by just moving my leg or yanking the cord, or if I get ejected from the boat the trainees cannot come back and run me over

dpround · 19 November 2014, 09:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

Yes, broken wire on a Merc Commander 2000 box.

Which is why I believe that the engine should be stopped every time with the kill cord. I cannot see any reason why this should not be SOP taught by the RYA. It is not a fault tolerant system and so MUST be tested every time.

Someone suggested that some engines should not be stopped with the kill cord. This is not true. Disconnecting the battery on a modern engine could be bad. Using the kill cord on a properly installed engine will never be bad and is equivalent to turning off the key.

gtb · 19 November 2014, 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris.moody

The one I use needs both to be plugged in for the engine to run. Means I can kill the power at any time by just moving my leg or yanking the cord, or if I get ejected from the boat the trainees cannot come back and run me over

Understood Chris, and that is what you need for a training boat. Instead I was thinking of Simon B's situation where they want to change helm safely, while also allowing them to keep the engine running.

chris.moody · 19 November 2014, 09:12

I generally teach people to "test" the kill switch after launching the boat and getting it into a safe place, then use the key for the rest of the day.

chris.moody · 19 November 2014, 09:14

I guess it's just a matter of if the switches are wired in parallel or series, as to how they work. Should be a simple wiring modification.

jlandells · 19 November 2014, 09:36

I recently heard a suggestion from an instructor for whom I have tremendous respect that we should be teaching "RYA Approved" methods, matched to a bit of common sense. He suggested that on day one of the PB2, every changeover is done by the book. On day 2, we take the view of "let's be adults about this - the RYA method is the safest, but as long as one person has hold of the killcord at all times, we can do a changeover with the engine running."

What are your thoughts on this?

Poly · 19 November 2014, 09:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtb

Don't you want it wired so either switch (rather than both) keeps the engine running? i.e. Helm 1 is on one switch with engine running, then Helm 2 comes along plugs into second switch, and the first helm pulls chord and walks away. Engine stays running all the time, unless both chords are tugged. Only one is chord is usually connected at a time apart from during changeover, when it requires both people to be thrown to stop engine.

It depends what your intention is! And, this is one of the risks with it - if people aren't quite sure they misunderstand and misuse, as well as just another electronic component to fail. All the more likely if people are using different boats with different configs.

chris.moody · 19 November 2014, 13:53

On a pb2 course I teach turning the engine off BEFORE removing the killcord. This means restarting the rib on the key maybe 50 or 60 times each day, basically every time we switch helms. That fine by me, that's what the battery is for, and it drums the process into the trainees so it becomes second nature for when they get their own rib

There are some exceptions. When we are using a pull start tiller steer (20hp) for part of the course some of the less strong trainees struggle to restart it. If that happens I say "I'll hold the killcord while you change over, but it should really be turned off". If I make the person that struggles restart the engine every time they get embarrassed about it, which then affects their learning of the current exercise. But on the electric start its engine off every time.

Simon B · 19 November 2014, 15:26

Just ordered our lot of cords, the Suzuki design looks like it can be "hot" swapped, I'll be up at the boat to do some brake work so we can run it up on the muffs to test the theory.

To be brutally honest though, if our motor doesnt start after a kill cord activation we need to know this and we shouldn't be relying on it staying going all day if its that fussy. So no problem in changing our behaviour to switch off the engine to change drivers/helms.

The Milly accident has made our club think about this and move to a more safe safety culture so its good.

9D280 · 19 November 2014, 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris.moody

Some remote throttles come with a spare kill switch plastic bit (no curly lead) stored in a purpose built slot

I think the idea of that is so that once the helm has gone for a swim the crew can restart & go fetch....... (read on)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris.moody

The one I use needs both to be plugged in for the engine to run. Means I can kill the power at any time by just moving my leg or yanking the cord, or if I get ejected from the boat the trainees cannot come back and run me over

....but based on the people I am usually out with there are maybe 2 of the regulars that I would fully trust to come back to me & not knock me sensless with the bow were I bobbing in the brine......

As has been said dozens of times before - we are trying to legislate for human nature, which by it's very being is self destructive - we forget, we get complacent, and if things get so complicated to be foolproof a proportion of us will try to circumvent it for an easy life.

As someone who (as alluded to earlier) has a museum piece of an engine that is statistically less likely to restart, I still pull the cord off safely clear of the launch place. That's why I have an Aux.

And yes, I sail single handed most of the time so I take my cord off & leave the merc spluttering on the transom to tie up, but realistically if I go over the side in that situation I'm way more likely to die of either getting crushed between boat & pier or being knocked unconcious against pier or boat & drowning than being minced by the engine with it's mechanical neutral lock.

Never forget that every situation is differnet and should be appraised on it's own merits & risks. Wide brush policies are rarely the best option.