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Old 08 May 2013, 13:05   #211
Country: UK - England
Town: Felmersham
Boat name: Kiss my bass
Length: 5m +
Engine: Mariner 40 2stroke,
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 22
Firstly I would like to offer my condolences to the family, what a shocking accident, and I have no doubts they will live with this for the rest of there lives, it's something that would haunt most of us, and I can only pray I am never unfortunate enough to be in that position.

Secondly, a thank you to the brave person/people who brought the boat under control saving further injuries, we so easily forget the actions of brave men like that, but reality is, tragic accidents can also bring out the best in some folk, he should be proud of his actions, as should all the people and services involved.

Kill cords, I will not detract from the original thread by getting drawn into the argument if it was worn or not, that's a job for the accident investigators, but I will say, I never had the option on my first boat, the controls were so old they did not have the facility, so for years I never used one, recently I changed and the new controls had a kill cord, it never struck me just how important it was until I actually had one on my boat, I would love to think I will always wear it, chances are I may forget it sometimes (poss due to old habits), I have asked the forum poster for the sticker he offered, not only for my benefit, but anyone on my boat will read it (in bold red, obviously placed) and hopefully they will either ask what it's all about and will get educated, or look to see f I am wearing it, can only be a good thing and a reminder for me either way.

The doom bar, I personally have been in and out the camel over it quite a number of times, I have personally witnessed it go from flat calm to waves of 6-8foot in the blink of an eye, it caught me once even though I was aware it could happen, and its an eye opener I can tell you ! It can stop as quick as it starts, on days when it looks so tranquil and safe you would not believe.
I have a very similar sand bar on my home port that has claimed many lives so am respectful and wary of the water at all times.

I don't think regulation is key, but education and awareness.

Please let's not all condemn the man until facts are proven, we all have thoughts on what could have been done better/safer, but we do also all make mistakes, it's a tragedy this family had to pay so dearly, and the next few weeks they have enough to cope with without a lynch mob on the case ! Having said that, some very constructive comments made so far as well.


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Old 08 May 2013, 13:37   #212
Country: Other
Town: Stanley, Falkland Is
Boat name: Seawolf
Make: Osprey Vipermax 5.8
Length: 5m +
Engine: Etec 150
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,655
Originally Posted by Chris Caton View Post
PD, I like you always use my kill cord, but I too have glanced down on occasion to see it dangling, again but for the grace of God.............. all those who have never made a mistake please step forward!
Yup, done that on a few occasions. I found the best way not to forget is to loop it through the steering wheel when you take it off, but I must admit I've got out of the habit of that lately... note to self.

A Boat is a hole in the water, surrounded by fibreglass, into which you throw money...

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Old 08 May 2013, 15:22   #213
Country: UK - England
Town: Cotswolds
Make: Avon SR4
Length: 4m +
Engine: 40hp
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 118
Originally Posted by Rokraider View Post
When driving in big waves, I find it a) comfier to stand b) better visibilty over the wave.
When manoeuvering to pick up a dinghy or sailor, in my experience you have to stand to get a good view to judge your distances.

Personally I can't see any argument for not standing?
Totally understand - and would agree - is often my preference to stand... just observing that there wil be a mixture of views out there - and many will be from folks who are not regular / experienced users...

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Old 08 May 2013, 15:28   #214
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Country: UK - Scotland
Town: Glasgow
Boat name: stramash
Make: Tornado
Length: 5m +
Engine: Etec 90
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,056
Originally Posted by Cookee View Post
I could be wrong but I reckon that the Cobra would have been turning tighter and to Port if the steering had failed suddenly and as a pedantic point it should have turned to Port unless it was using a left handed prop?
About my position too ... I dont know if it failed in some way, but I did not get the impression the lock was full to starboard. And I agree that it would most likely have been hydraulic steering so not affected by torque, and was most likely in the same position as and when the occupants left, I was also surprised at the lack of speed, (unless my pc did not render the video properly) unless the throttle position was knocked down slightly on exit, Which begs the question,.. what the hec was it that ejected the crew ?

I share everyone elses despair at this whole incident however, and it certainly made me review my safety strategy, which included not using the cord around your wrists, as I have done in the past.

Without labouring the point .. someone mentioned testing the kit regularly, and Ive said before Ive always been an advocate of this, all your safety kit needs to be used from top to bottom to know it works when required, and I sometimes do a kill test, to check operational condition with experienced crew or otherwise to show that you dont just need to hang on when under way, but if the helm throttles back in an emergency, and/or in the case of an ejection.. the deceleration can be severe.

I think we all know the main points though.. a bit like wearing a safety belt in a car, in this kind of boat .. paricularly with that kind of horsepower .. it just needs prioritising.

Member of S.A.B.S. (Scottish Hebridean, central,west,east,north,everywhere Division)
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Old 08 May 2013, 15:41   #215
Country: USA
Town: Oklahoma USA
Length: no boat
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 36
Why lack of speed?

Originally Posted by Bigmuz7 View Post
I was also surprised at the lack of speed, (unless my pc did not render the video properly) unless the throttle position was knocked down slightly on exit,
One early BBC news report said the "jumper" threw a rope in front of the boat and partially fouled the prop before he jumped in. That may or may not be true. If it is, it could account for the slower speed.

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Old 09 May 2013, 02:31   #216
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Country: UK - England
Town: Salcombe, Devon, UK
Boat name: BananaShark
Make: BananaShark
Length: 10m +
Engine: 2xYanmar 260 diesels
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Originally Posted by HughN View Post
Not speculating on this incident specifically, but wr.t. steering, wasn't there an MAIB report where the root cause was found to be air in the hydraulics, causing the occupants to be ejected after an uncommanded turn?
Air in hydraulic steering wouldn't cause a sudden failure - In the Guardian video you see the guy straighten up and drive the boat away so the steering was working.

Originally Posted by PGIC View Post
And back to the discussion of which way the boat would be turning if it had a steering failure and comparing that to the videos, it is my understanding that some video cameras reverse left to right. The circling observed in the videos may have been going the other way around the loop?

And they didn't land on the moon either! Cameras don't reverse things although editing does - that was from a mobile phone unless I'm mistaken and why would anyone want to reverse it anyway? The Guardian video proves the steering was working unless I'm mistaken?
Originally Posted by Zippy
When a boat looks that good who needs tubes!!!
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Old 09 May 2013, 05:13   #217
Country: UK - England
Length: 5m +
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 47
Originally Posted by Anchorhandler View Post
Removed the poster's name??....sorry but how pathetic are you?

Probably not a good time to mention then that on occasion, I exceed the speed limit on the motorway then?

There are times also when i've walked through a hard hat zone without actually wearing one!

I've also been known to not wear safety goggles when using power tools.....

Now using your analogy.. I admit the chances of tripping and being ejected from a boat while moving at slow speed in perfectly calm waters is not impossible..........but like the examples given above...the risk is manageable.

I wrote the post in support of another members point that on occasion he doesnt wear a KC....So all of a sudden we've all become angels around here have we? Come on, how many others have driven a rib (in calm and controled conditions) without a KC?

I'm man enough to admit that even though its not best practice, i have done it. (When conditions allow)

Finally, read my second to last line of my post...

Sorry to distract from the real issues here...

Without wishing to start an argument, my point was not about forgetting the KC it was deliberately not putting it on because....(insert reason of choice) i.e. only going slowly round the harbour etc
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Old 09 May 2013, 09:34   #218
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Country: UK - England
Town: Rugby & Southsea
Boat name: Tigga
Make: Avon SR4
Length: 4m +
Engine: Honda BF50
MMSI: 235910073
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 980
Originally Posted by davesailing2004 View Post
Without wishing to start an argument, my point was not about forgetting the KC it was deliberately not putting it on because....(insert reason of choice) i.e. only going slowly round the harbour etc
I also struggle with this idea of I don't need the kill cord because ........

We don't leave our seatbelts off and only put them on seconds before impact do we.
Chris Moody
Rib Tigga an Avon SR4 Rescue with Honda BF50
MMSI 235910073 Callsign T123046
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Old 09 May 2013, 10:03   #219
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Country: UK - England
Town: Poole
Boat name: Grimalkin
Make: Ribcraft 750 Sport
Length: 7m +
Engine: Suzi 250
MMSI: 235050647
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 885
Taking the last couple of posts a stage further, I’ve been trying to think of circumstances where NOT wearing a kill cord would take precedence over wearing one. I can’t come up with many:
• Coming in to moor when solo. This is probably the most common and is virtually unavoidable but by leaving the cord attached until the last minute, speed should be slow or nil and the time of unattachment will be kept to a minimum thus reducing any risk.
• To prevent accidental tripping of the cord. Frankly this strikes me as being a hardware issue which needs righting since a correctly worn cord of a suitable length should not produce this problem.
• When stationary but unanchored or trolling (eg while stopped for a picnic/drink or drift fishing). In this case the engine is likely to be in neutral and with little risk. There is still the possibility of accidentally pushing the throttle but if this is a concern why not turn the engine off?
• Because wearing a kill cord is uncomfortable. Nobody has actually mentioned this as a scenario but it is, I suppose, a possibility. Again, however, it is a hardware issue that can be addressed by means of an alternative solution.
• Oversight. This can never be ruled out owing to human error but the possibility can be reduced by a) keeping the kill cord attached to the wearer so that the engine cannot be started the cord being connected; b) warning notices and c) getting crew to remind/check the helm whenever setting off.
Other than the above situations, I can think of no circumstances in which there is a downside to wearing a kill cord…. SO WHY NOT WEAR ONE?
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Old 09 May 2013, 10:28   #220
Country: UK - England
Town: macclessfield
Boat name: Reach Out
Make: Quicksilver
Length: 4m +
Engine: 30hp Tohatsu EFI
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 301
The sand bar waves coming from nowhere at this location could catch out even an experienced skipper by the looks of them. I saw similar ones near Rhosneigr, smaller, but still very dangerous and came from nowhere.

The hydraulic steering failure seems unlikely on this boat, but think back to an equally tragic event on Loch Lomond a few years back, this was triggered by hydraulic steering failure, due to bad mainenance.

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