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Old 08 May 2013, 05:11   #191
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Not a great analogy, how many times have you driven over the legal limit or not renewed you insurance? people prioritise things differently. I used to teach people to jump out of planes, we had rules as safety was paramount and you followed them to a T - occasionally the risks were brought home when someone was killed, in the same way this incident will make many sit up and think. What seems pathetic to you may be important to someone else.
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Old 08 May 2013, 05:20   #192
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Whatever happened and how great a bloke he was, that kill cord could've prevented an incident becoming a tragedy.
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Old 08 May 2013, 05:44   #193
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Originally Posted by thomas View Post
Not a great analogy, how many times have you driven over the legal limit or not renewed you insurance? people prioritise things differently. I used to teach people to jump out of planes, we had rules as safety was paramount and you followed them to a T - occasionally the risks were brought home when someone was killed, in the same way this incident will make many sit up and think. What seems pathetic to you may be important to someone else.
Thomas, my "pathetic" comment was directed purely at the condescending manner he "removed the posters name" .....not at his comments as a whole.


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Old 08 May 2013, 05:55   #194
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A lot of good comments on kill cords - and I know that in the couple of PB courses I have done there has been a strong focus on these (and I always have one & spare on the SR...

but I do think that there is something flawed in the way the whole process works - having to remember them / you can clip them to the wrong place and not have them work / etc.

Is there any reason that you can't have a dead-man's switch like the ones on your lawnmower - on the throttle - release of switch and engine returns to idle / or even turns off - there is mention above of spring loaded throttles - are they not a better approach (though with the engine still idling - not sure if that is ideal)

We have a lot of technology elsewhere - from car seats with pressure sensors to detect whether you (or your shopping!) is wearing a seat belt - to lawn mowers / etc. It wouldn't be difficult to put these ideas into a boat - nor expensive, and I am sure that if we did - in 10 years time no-one would worry about the loss of the kill cord and letting the tech sort it out...

for example - a pressure sensor in the seat, (assuming that is being used in the boat) could be set to not allow the engine to go above a certain speed / make them drop down to a slower speed - hand removed from the throttle can kill the engine - we have no issues driving a car for hours on end needing a foot on a pedal...

yes, we need better education, yes, I would always be an advocate of training (lots of fun if nothing else!), but actually these boats which can cost a fortune to buy are actually technologically a long way behind other items we find in our homes / the cars we drive - if a volvo can stop when you would otherwise run over a pedestrian - how difficult would it be to put the same tech into a boat? and that is in a car which costs a lot lot less than most boats...

I do think that this is perhaps a call for some creative thinking

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Old 08 May 2013, 06:04   #195
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personally, I often stand as I am going along as I am usually looking for people in the water and want the best view, so a pressure switch would not work for me. I believe having a return spring on the throttle would make for very jerky power delivery when in rough conditions, same as driving a car over a very bumpy track.
A proximity sensor seems a good idea, similar to the modern cars where you no longer have an ignition key. Something that could be tuned allowing you to wander round the boat without killing the engine say a range of 12'. Problems would be having a spare one for the passenger to use if you went over the side. If it worked on the same frequency and was withing the range, it would not cut out. Maybe you would simply have a manual overide for emergencies?
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Old 08 May 2013, 06:46   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by behavin View Post
the kill cord shown on the news was stretched out ie: it wasn't a tightly coiled one.
Not necessarily, my kill cord is a cord, not a coiled spring type so it would look like that anyway.
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Old 08 May 2013, 07:31   #197
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I have purposefully been holding off posting here for a couple of days on purpose.

As has been said, nobody knows what happened. Untill the forensic investigation is done, we continue to be in that position. I spend sizeable chunks of my week doing failure analysis, and I can assure you the "obvious" reason very rarely turns out to be the root cause.

For that reason I can only send my condolances to those involved, and ask that you all stop supposing, assuming & pointing fingers until the evidence is published.


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Originally Posted by chris.moody View Post
You may not want just anyone restarting the engine and driving towards you when you are in the water unless you are confident of their MOB abilities.
+1

Been the MoB (whilst being rescued from a broken Laser) and even knowing the driver is competent and having a lump of upturned dighy to duck behind I can assure you It's a class 1 "brown trouser" moment when the bow of an SR4 is looming above you.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by behavin View Post
the kill cord shown on the news was stretched out ie: it wasnt a tightly coiled one.
This to me shows its either been well used by the driver ,or maybe has caught on something at the drivers end and broken ?

The rib was turning circles as shown in the videos with no one aboard so the kill cord shown i would say not be the instructors that jumped onboard.

Was the guy actually driving ? was one of the others having a go ?
my boys very often drive our rib and if they do i join kill cords together and sit next to them rather than them wear the cord.
+1
Exactly. Which is why I said above - Don't apportion blame (if any is even to be apportioned) until you know all the facts. This may have been a remarkably unlucky incident.



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wireless cords ? no way ! it has to be a physical attachment to the boat and the driver..as fail safe as it gets
.
Well, maybe. I have a 30-odd YO engine. The failsafe is that the switch is held open and when the cord is removed it shorts the ignition. Even if I test it before leaving the harbour, how do I know the connection inside the engine hasn't shaken loose as I head out over the waves?

The only way to properly failsafe is to have something like triple paralell wiring so 2/3 can fail "en route" & still work. Should also have a warning that will tell you if "non agreement" between the three cables is detected...or should it just shut the engine down?. Hang on, it's the old "Lee shore in a F6 and you can't motor off due to a grumpy engine management box" scenario again... etc etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by akirk View Post
Is there any reason that you can't have a dead-man's switch like the ones on your lawnmower - on the throttle - release of switch and engine returns to idle / or even turns off - there is mention above of spring loaded throttles - are they not a better approach (though with the engine still idling - not sure if that is ideal)

We have a lot of technology elsewhere - from car seats with pressure sensors to detect whether you (or your shopping!) is wearing a seat belt - to lawn mowers / etc. It wouldn't be difficult to put these ideas into a boat - nor expensive, and I am sure that if we did - in 10 years time no-one would worry about the loss of the kill cord and letting the tech sort it out...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokraider View Post
personally, I often stand <etc>

There is some good discussion here, and I have to agree with Rokraider in that it's going to have to be more high tech than a simple pressure switch (my throttle frictrion screw was slightly loose at Easdale last weekend and I can tell you it was an @rse of a thing to drive for more than about 10 mins) I too was on & off the seat like a jack-in the box due to the weather conditions, so we're probably looking at some form of (as I said above) probably dual or triple optical sensor with comaparators..... (and if anyone patents that - note the time & date of this post )

Two problems with uber high tech solutions - there is more to go wrong (corroded connections etc) and even if they were a legislative must, to use the automotive comparison even in cars there are still a fair few Morris Minors / Austin 7s out there that (I think) you can still get away without a seatbelt if it wasn't fitted (as an optional extra) back in 1957 when it left the factory... (I am open to correction on that, but the simiar theme certianly applies to emmissions!)

Do you insist retro fitting all boats? Do you just live with the fact that there will not ever be a "universal" use of this new system? (and lets face it- how many Ribs are on here >20YO, and we on the forum are generally up to speed with the latest tech - how many Fletcher Arrowsports get dug out once a year and get towed somewhere on screeching brearings by people who go out as often as their boat sees water? What are the chances of them even kowing this new gizmo must be fitted?




Whatever happens, accidents will happen. yes, we can reduce the frequency of them & hopefully the resulting carnage, but there is no way we can totally protect everyone from everything.

Problem is we are all human. We all forget. We all get distracted.

Let's wait for the report. Whatever the reasons, it was a terrible outcome.
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Old 08 May 2013, 08:16   #198
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Of course We all appreciate prevention is better than cure. My understanding is an unmanned boat will often move in ever decreasing circles. If you do find yourself in the water in this situation are there any options?
With Hydraulic steering this will not happen - it will stay where it is when the helm was released - useful for trying to work out what was going on at the time of ejection - even if the helm held on for a moment it wouldn't have altered things very much.

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Originally Posted by cptsideways View Post
The footage of the boat being brought under control is at or on the Doombar sandbars or just downtide by the looks of things. Doom Bar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is for those who don't know the area, rather than criticism of those concerned. The Doombar is a dangerous spot, waves can appear even on a perfectly flat looking calm day due to the swell & tide running over the sandbars.

This is a typical Doombar wave, hence its a top windsurfing wavesailing spot, I'm a regular there. This is a Doombar wave, that could obviously cause problems to a boat at speed or even stationary. These waves simply appear from nowhere, even in light winds (They appear to, but the shallows are where they occur)

The footage of the boat being brought under contro which was presumably not that much later in the day showed flat calm water?
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Old 08 May 2013, 08:26   #199
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1st off, my deepest sympathies to those affected by this awful incident. As always with an incident like this, the speculation / finger pointing may not be appropriate, but discussion as to how to prevent recurrance is at least a small positive.

My personal view is this: I am absolutely 100% against any form of mandatory regulation of our sport for a multitude of reasons. Life is dangerous and personal responsibility has to be the answer. Sadly, some times tragic accidents happen, even to the most experienced and capable of us.

That said, I really do like the idea of stickers reading 'wear your killcord' placed at the helm. Could a solution along these lines be offered as a 'gentlemans agreement' as an alternative to further regulation I wonder? I believe a similar thing was done by the big 4 japanese motorcycle manufacturers in the '80s to avoid European limits on HP and more recently with daytime running lights. It HAS to be a better option if it comes from the boating community rathern than the legislators.

Regarding high-tech solutions: Any technological advance is a good thing, and on paper sounds like a great idea. However in practice, the smarter the technology, the less people think about what they are doing. Yes you remove the human element, but you also remove the human need to think and assess the situation. For example, how many modern cars do you see (presumably with automatic headlights) driving in fog / heavy rain with no lights on? Or more recently (and more worryingly) the newest cars with what appear to be always on front fogs, driving around with no tail lights? IMO technology never mitigates the need for concentration and awareness.
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Old 08 May 2013, 08:32   #200
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With Hydraulic steering this will not happen - it will stay where it is when the helm was released -
Precisely. There has been so much misinformation re steering. Jeremy Vine had an Rya expert on his prog yesterday, explaining how the steering would flop to hard over due to torque reaction.
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