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Old 23 March 2009, 11:33   #41
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In other words - NEVER admit anything - most people just panic and cough up!!!
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Old 23 March 2009, 12:03   #42
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I have the reverse problem - current in Mudeford - often gets to 4- 5knts - Speed limit is 4 knts . To make any progress I need to do at least 6 knts ( water speed ) - again the worst speed for wake - but this gives me 1 knt SOG ! If I do 8 knts 0 I get ' told off' for speeding - but I am really just crawling forward !

However come 6 pm when the ferry stops & the harbour patrol goes home people do ( & I saw it on Saturday ! ) 35knts up the river without thinking !
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Old 23 March 2009, 14:16   #43
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are most speed limits afloat not measured through the water rather than SOG? in which case all this "not enough speed to manouvre" stuff is irrelevant.
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Old 23 March 2009, 15:30   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polwart View Post
are most speed limits afloat not measured through the water rather than SOG? in which case all this "not enough speed to manouvre" stuff is irrelevant.
Well, around here, Chichester Harbour byelaws say:

Quote:
The master of any power-driven vessel shall not,
subject to the requirements of maintaining adequate
steerage way and control, suffer or cause her to be
navigated or driven in the harbour at a speed exceeding
eight knots through, on or over the water,
Whilst Poole says:

Quote:
Vessels shall not be navigated at a speed exceeding 10 knots through the water.
However Langstone says:

Quote:
The speed limit is 10 knots over the ground and 5 knots over the ground in the Marina Approach Channel
So I guess the answer is 'it depends'
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Old 23 March 2009, 15:32   #45
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But if you are using a radar gun you will surely get SOG unless you are moving at the same speed as the tidal flow?

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Old 23 March 2009, 15:42   #46
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But if you are using a radar gun you will surely get SOG unless you are moving at the same speed as the tidal flow?
Presumably thats why PHC don't use radar guns:
Quote:
How do we measure speed?
The speed limit is "through the water". This is measured by a conventional speed log, usually driven by a small impellor. It needs to be checked regularly for accuracy. Speed "over the ground" is measured very accurately by GPS, and many recreational craft are fitted with this facility. If there are no tidal or weather conditions, your speed "over the ground" and "through the water" will be the same. Remember therefore, if you are measuring your speed by GPS to make allowance for the tidal stream to give you your speed "through the water". Our launches are fitted with both conventional logs and GPS so that we can measure both.

We will normally measure your speed by following at a set distance over several hundred yards - our equipment is checked and adjusted on a daily basis. We can also check speed accurately on radar within the harbour and CCTV is also very useful in the initial detection of speeding craft.

In summary:
  • The speed limit helps to reduce the risk of an incident - please abide by it.
  • Please also watch your wash. Keep a good lookout and try not to inconvenience other users.
  • Have a "gentle" passage down harbour! Savour the beauty and save your speed till you get into clear water outside.
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Old 23 March 2009, 16:23   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polwart View Post
are most speed limits afloat not measured through the water rather than SOG? in which case all this "not enough speed to manouvre" stuff is irrelevant.
I've checked & Mudeford is speed through the water - so at times with a 4knt limit & a 5knt current no-one ever comes in the harbour without breaking the rules!
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Old 23 March 2009, 16:43   #48
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Quote:

Originally Posted by SDGANDER View Post
But if you are using a radar gun you will surely get SOG unless you are moving at the same speed as the tidal flow?
Presumably thats why PHC don't use radar guns:
Quote:
How do we measure speed?
The speed limit is "through the water". This is measured by a conventional speed log, usually driven by a small impellor. It needs to be checked regularly for accuracy. Speed "over the ground" is measured very accurately by GPS, and many recreational craft are fitted with this facility. If there are no tidal or weather conditions, your speed "over the ground" and "through the water" will be the same. Remember therefore, if you are measuring your speed by GPS to make allowance for the tidal stream to give you your speed "through the water". Our launches are fitted with both conventional logs and GPS so that we can measure both.

We will normally measure your speed by following at a set distance over several hundred yards - our equipment is checked and adjusted on a daily basis. We can also check speed accurately on radar within the harbour and CCTV is also very useful in the initial detection of speeding craft.

In summary:

* The speed limit helps to reduce the risk of an incident - please abide by it.
* Please also watch your wash. Keep a good lookout and try not to inconvenience other users.
* Have a "gentle" passage down harbour! Savour the beauty and save your speed till you get into clear water outside.
Don't know anything about PHC but others certainly do - including Chichester if I remember correctly.

'Checked daily' means nothing in court, every 'instrument' we used in evidence had to have a current independent calibration certificate, a copy of which would always be submitted in the disclosure of evidence. Devices/instruments that were not part of the ship's navigation or fixed 'evidence gathering devices' would be immediately removed from use and bagged/tagged as evidence in order that a defence could not say they had been altered. Likewise any electronic evidence was burned to cd and screen shots printed and again tagged as evidence.

As codprawn said say nothing, you maybe interviewed and asked to provide a statement - you do NOT have to do that at the time, I would however suggest you provide name, address and DOB - the onus is on them to provide the evidence to convict you. I would think that harbour masters and their staff have no powers to detain you - but don't quote me on that one!

A good lawyer WILL have a case thrown out before it ever gets to court if there is any doubt about the validity or inaccuracy of the evidence.

As for what 'punishments' the HM can doll out is presumably covered in their bylaws. Likewise places like Portsmouth may incur much more severe penalties!

That said if the HM are following you in their boat and you don't see them maybe you should be keeping a better look out?!

NB. I am not advocating anyone breaking the law in anyway whatsoever!

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Old 24 March 2009, 04:38   #49
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...? Were they cautioned in accordance with PACE? Shall I carry on?

SDG
Yeah..carry on. How does P.A.C.E. apply to a harbourmaster..or anyone other than a serving Police officer? Do they have to be specifically appointed as "Constables" ?
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Old 24 March 2009, 07:21   #50
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Yeah..carry on. How does P.A.C.E. apply to a harbourmaster..or anyone other than a serving Police officer? Do they have to be specifically appointed as "Constables" ?
It's been a couple of years now since I left the job and there was a new PACE issued in (I think) October 2008 so some details may have changed but it applies to anyone who has a prosecution role (clue is in the title police AND criminal evidence act) - which covers the HM if they are intending on taking you to court for the offence or fining you. It certainly applies for Fishery Officers, HMCR officers, police, environmental health officers, etc. However they are considered Constables in law and are afforded various powers by Statute relevant to their role; hence my remark about I doubt that the HM can detain you.

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