Should there be an alcohol limit for leisure boaters?

[Chris]

Tim,

FYI Johnny Fuller runs another forum called boatmad and not this one.

John Kennett runs this one and from what I have seen runs things very fairly.

Chris

[Tims Osprey]

Hi chris how yu doing mate? thanks for that i know that i may have said a few things which perhaps i shouldn't but that dude asks for it.

[Tims Osprey]

Originally Posted by Sarah G

Going back to the original thread, I agree with Codprawn, I don't think any legislation would have affected the behaviour in Cowes. They had already been warned by the police - they were driving at night - no lights - no lifejackets. Drunk or Sober they were going on that course of action and the outcome would have probably ended up the same - perhaps worse.

There is an argument for and against legislation. Nobody believes that drink driving a car is a good idea and there is legislation to prevent this and yet people still do it.

I do not drink and drive over the limit in a car or a rib and to be honest, it is fun enough without alcohol. Having said that, at the priory bay meeting I had a pimms and lemonade, who is to say that I wasn't over the limit as there are so many factors that would determine whether I would be over the limit.

However a zero tollerance would be unworkable in some situations. You are at a beach planning to spend the weekend there, have a few beers. You've listened to the forecast and know the tide times and yet you have to move your boat in the middle of the night for whatever reason. Do you:-

a) not have any alcohol - just in case;
b) not move the boat even though this may put yourself or your boat in danger;
c) move the boat and hope that everything will be OK.

Clearly, the most sensible answer is a) but in reality!

Well said Sarah, back to reality, although i admit i am one of the offenders, but i agree with yer post

[codprawn]

Originally Posted by Sarah G

However a zero tollerance would be unworkable in some situations. You are at a beach planning to spend the weekend there, have a few beers. You've listened to the forecast and know the tide times and yet you have to move your boat in the middle of the night for whatever reason. Do you:-

a) not have any alcohol - just in case;
b) not move the boat even though this may put yourself or your boat in danger;
c) move the boat and hope that everything will be OK.

Clearly, the most sensible answer is a) but in reality!

Remember unlike RIBs many boat owners will actually live on their boats for a while. Imagine being securly anchored or attached to a mooring buoy for a whole weekend. A skipper has a few drinks and retires to his bunk. Then wakes up to discover another yacht has dragged his anchor in the Force 7 that has sprung up. What is he supposed to do???

This situation is highly unlikely to occur to a car driver so why try and apply the same laws? Also apart from the South Coast most areas of Britain are pretty deserted. Things happen a lot slower at sea than they do in a car and there is a lot less to hit. Also most boats carry a crew - whilst it's ulimately the skippers responsibility usually the crew will also lend a hand - a bit difficult on the M4........

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Sarah G

... I don't think any legislation would have affected the behaviour in Cowes. They had already been warned by the police -...!

Of course it would. They'd have been nicked on-the-spot, much like if Police see an obviously drunk individual getting into a car....

[Sarah G]

Originally Posted by codprawn

Remember unlike RIBs many boat owners will actually live on their boats for a while. Imagine being securly anchored or attached to a mooring buoy for a whole weekend. A skipper has a few drinks and retires to his bunk. Then wakes up to discover another yacht has dragged his anchor in the Force 7 that has sprung up. What is he supposed to do???

This situation is highly unlikely to occur to a car driver so why try and apply the same laws? Also apart from the South Coast most areas of Britain are pretty deserted. Things happen a lot slower at sea than they do in a car and there is a lot less to hit. Also most boats carry a crew - whilst it's ulimately the skippers responsibility usually the crew will also lend a hand - a bit difficult on the M4........

We had a situation many years ago - drinking rather merrily. Went to bed, woke up with the call of nature when my dad saw some distress flares. We were the first to see them and called in the coastguards. Turned out to be a fishing boat in Chichester Harbour that had overturned. Two found but the third was still missing. We were requested to help with the search. Didn't think about it, just did it and yet we were all clearly over the limit.

Drink legislation is not the answer for boats, but perhaps they could come up with some common sense rules instead. i.e. if you are stupid enough to be going out of a harbour without lights at night - your nicked. Lifejackets -well that is another difficult one but it only affects those that choose not to wear them. Going out at night without lights has a potential risk for everybody else on the water.

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Sarah G

Going out at night without lights has a potential risk for everybody else on the water.

...and being drunk doesn't ?

[Sarah G]

Originally Posted by Jono

...and being drunk doesn't ?

Jono - read my thread - That is not what I said.

Being drunk clearly has implications to other boat users - however, it is not as simple as drink driving rules in a car. You can hardly hail a taxi to get you home.

If you know that you are travelling back that night - such as these guys in Cowes, then they should refrain from drinking, if nothing else, many people have to drive a car at the other end to retrieve the boat or to go home. I have no doubt - although no proof - that these guys (or gals) would have probably got into a car and driven home - they clearly didn't care!

But in the scenario I outlined, it would make things very difficult. Considering how many boats are/were in the solent over the Cowes week, I can imagine that many of them had skippers who would 'technically' be over the limit with very few accidents - and before you jump in - that doesn't make it right but in our scenario - should we have just stayed at anchor and not assisted in the rescue? There weren't many people up at 3.00 am. What would you do Jono?

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Sarah G

Jono - read my thread - That is not what I said.

Being drunk clearly has implications to other boat users - however, it is not as simple as drink driving rules in a car. You can hardly hail a taxi to get you home.

I read your thread quite clearly thanks. What came across was that you choose an example to back up your "drink boating" argument. You could use the same argument on dry land if you wished

.... next-door neighbour rushes around to your isolated farmhouse because her father has fallen onto a hay-bailing spike and is bleeding profusely. Unfortunately as all the local roads are flooded there is no chance of an ambulance getting through, but you're able to put him in your Tractor and drive him the 10 miles to hospital… at least you would ...but you’ve had a couple of glasses of cider as is your want at this time of year…..what would you do?

Same argument? Legislation happens because there are idiots out there with no self-control and scant regard for the welfare of others. It’s inevitable. I have always been against compulsory licensing and legislation for boating activities, but following the steady rise in popularity of boats over my 25 years of association with them it has become inevitable that it will attract more and more of these idiots and as sure as night follows day, legislation will follow…

[Tomas]

My two cents from the land of libation.

The fact that one can seat himself at the helm of a power boat, turn the key and "drive" this way and that at an elevated speed with no more skill than a mongoose makes it more likely that bad things are going to happen, accompanied by drink or not. We had an incident less than a month ago where a jet ski rental blew in front of the seaplane that ferries passangers from here to St. Thomas on an hourly basis. The airplane was aready "up on the step" and the alert pilot shut down best he could and missed the jet ski by less than a meter. Had the aircraft struck the ski, surely the lives of 19 passengers and two crew would have been seriously in danger, to say nothing of the nit wit on the jet ski.

Lack of practiced skills, ease of operation and speed of power driven vessels present the greatest danger to the ignorant operator and others that cross their path.

I drive a RIB around here and although I know there is a certain bias against what you guys I believe call, "yachties", a sail boat operator will, nine times out of nine demonstrate better safety skills than your average power boat jockey. Too many of these folks have horsepower ratings greater than their IQ numbers.

Sounds to me like if you guys want to add additional regulations like not drinking and driving boats, which is a sensible thing to do, you might want to get the government to eliminate some of the stupid regs. you already operate under as a trade off. The first one that comes to mind is the requirement for a Station and Operator License for a VHF radio. That's like requiring a license for a life jackets and nav. lights. Please...make essential safety gear as available to everyone as possible. We have had very few incidents here of people on VHF radios subverting the government or jamming commercial channels endangering oil tankers and the like...HA!

"The government that governs least governs best"
Thomas Jefferson

"The constitution of the US doesn't guarantee happiness, only the persuit of it. If you want happiness you've got to catch up with it yourself"
Benjamin Franklin

Tomas

[Sarah G]

Originally Posted by Jono

I read your thread quite clearly thanks. What came across was that you choose an example to back up your "drink boating" argument. You could use the same argument on dry land if you wished

.... next-door neighbour rushes around to your isolated farmhouse because her father has fallen onto a hay-bailing spike and is bleeding profusely. Unfortunately as all the local roads are flooded there is no chance of an ambulance getting through, but you're able to put him in your Tractor and drive him the 10 miles to hospital… at least you would ...but you’ve had a couple of glasses of cider as is your want at this time of year…..what would you do?

Same argument? Legislation happens because there are idiots out there with no self-control and scant regard for the welfare of others. It’s inevitable. I have always been against compulsory licensing and legislation for boating activities, but following the steady rise in popularity of boats over my 25 years of association with them it has become inevitable that it will attract more and more of these idiots and as sure as night follows day, legislation will follow…

As I explained in my thread, but perhaps I wasn't clear - I do not drink and drive a car or a rib - although saying that I had one drink at priory bay.

In your scenario, I wouldn't drive my tractor as I would probably do more harm than good to the patient by moving them, I am not a medically trained individual and would therefore request an air ambulance. Not the same at all.

We were looking for a possible survivor in the water - as it turned out he had died.

As you say, there are idiots out there which is why we need legislation, and in theory I agree. Unfortunately, these 'idiots' are not the ones to follow the legislation, only the law abidding people. It will not cut down on idiots behaving or trying to get away with sailing whilst drunk - although I grant that it would give the law inforcement officers a fighting chance to nick these people if they catch them first.

You are fighting me as though I am against legislation - I am not - but I think that it has to be workable and thought through.

[GuyP]

It's a shame that this forum doesn't have any voting functionality, as this would be a great topic to get the forum's view on.

My guess is that 70% would be against any kind of formal legislation.

The fact is, that any death caused by a person in charge of a boat while in British waters can still lead to a prosecution for man slaughter etc. Which, in my view is legislation enough.

What we could probably do with is a number of high profile prosecutions to make people realise that there are possibly negative consequences, which may change some people's behaviours.

In the case highlighted in the start of this thread, the guy's lost his boat,which is probably justice enough. Now, if I was one of his passengers, I'd probably sue - another way to enforce behaviours without going down the legislative route.

[Sarah G]

Originally Posted by GuyP

It's a shame that this forum doesn't have any voting functionality, as this would be a great topic to get the forum's view on.

Could be fun to see the answers!

Originally Posted by GuyP

In the case highlighted in the start of this thread, the guy's lost his boat,which is probably justice enough. Now, if I was one of his passengers, I'd probably sue - another way to enforce behaviours without going down the legislative route.

Perhaps taking this a step further - if they have insurance, their boat is not covered when the skipper is under the influence - but then there is another debate as insurance is not compulsory

[Jono]

Originally Posted by Sarah G

As I explained in my thread, but perhaps I wasn't clear - I do not drink and drive a car or a rib -

That’s admirable, but I suspect you are generally a responsible law-abiding person. Unfortunately, because of the state of modern society as a whole, you are heading into a minority. Legislation is, generally, with some exceptions, aimed at protecting us even if we don’t agree with it (Codders step in here for your traditional Tony Blair rant..)

Originally Posted by Sarah G

In your scenario, I wouldn't drive my tractor as I would probably do more harm than good to the patient by moving them, I am not a medically trained individual and would therefore request an air ambulance. Not the same at all.

Why not? Requesting an Air Ambulance around here would have been futile especially with the weather conditions prevalent at the time. …but my point was simply that you can find a convincing argument to back up support or opposition fore anything…

Originally Posted by Sarah G

As you say, there are idiots out there which is why we need legislation, and in theory I agree. Unfortunately, these 'idiots' are not the ones to follow the legislation, only the law abiding people. It will not cut down on idiots behaving or trying to get away with sailing whilst drunk - although I grant that it would give the law inforcement officers a fighting chance to nick these people if they catch them first. .

Which is pretty much what I said in my previous post.. if the law had been in place that RIB crew would have been sobering up in the cells..not A&E…

Originally Posted by Sarah G

You are fighting me as though I am against legislation - I am not - but I think that it has to be workable and thought through. .

I’m not fighting you at all… I believe that the time has come for sensible legislation on drinking … enforced properly…


PS Please accept my apologies if I don’t respond further… I’m off for a while and not sure of Internet access..…cheers, Jono

.

[the bandit]

Originally Posted by Sarah G

Could be fun to see the answers!



[

[/QUOTE]

Why When driving a car your still insured when under the influence

[Sarah G]

Originally Posted by Jono

Which is pretty much what I said in my previous post.. if the law had been in place that RIB crew would have been sobering up in the cells..not A&E…

I wasn't there at the time, but they say that the police warned these people not to go out. I would have thought that if the Police were that concerned that they could have retained them on other grounds. Perhaps the police had seen them, warned them not to go, they said 'oh no officer we won't go we were just getting our jackets' and then left anyway.

Isn't there legislation for boats having lights for nightime navigation? If my memory serves me correctly, the skipper of the ill-fated motor boat that collided in Scotland with another boat killing the other skipper get charged on grounds that neither boats were correctly lit, that both were over the limit, etc. Perhaps somebody who knows whether this is a legislation already could confirm/denigh this.

It could be that there is sufficient legislation to stop these idiots just it has to be enforced.

[Sarah G]

Why When driving a car your still insured when under the influence [/QUOTE]

Check your insurance documents. Many companies opted out (I think it was Pearl that started it after a big incident involving a drunk driver that killed a number of people). If you are involved in an accident when over the limit, your car is not covered even if it is not your fault. I am fairly sure that they will repair the other peoples cars in the event that it was your fault.

[GuyP]

Correct - my car insurance doesn't cover me if driving while over the limit or under the influence of drugs. I'm almost certain that is industry wide now.

[the bandit]

[

Check your insurance documents. Many companies opted out (I think it was Pearl that started it after a big incident involving a drunk driver that killed a number of people). If you are involved in an accident when over the limit, your car is not covered even if it is not your fault. I am fairly sure that they will repair the other peoples cars in the event that it was your fault. [/QUOTE]


They paid out for a new car at xmas to a mates son who was only 20

Might depend on the different companys

[Tims Osprey]

[QUOTE=Jono;214117] That’s admirable, but I suspect you are generally a responsible law-abiding person. Unfortunately, because of the state of modern society as a whole, you are heading into a minority. Legislation is, generally, with some exceptions, aimed at protecting us even if we don’t agree with it (Codders step in here for your traditional Tony Blair rant..)



You say about the state of modern society and legislation which is there to protect us?? but its legislation thats got society in this crisis! why would more legislation achieve a better society?? whats a system that keeps piling legislation upon legislation, its a system thats in a mess, and as soon as i have become a fully qualified electrician i'm of to oz to live