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Old 25 March 2006, 14:33   #1
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shackles or carabiners?

Scratching my head at the moment as to the most secure means of attaching lines to stuff so that they can be easily removed without faffing around with knots and stuff.

Stainless steel shackles or carabiners seemingly being the two options....

Are there likely to be problems with shackles gradually undoing themselves and letting go over a long period, with vibration/movement? Doing a bit of fiddling around with the shackles suggested there might be, as if the pins were loose I could persuade them to unscrew under certain vibration conditions, though if they were done up really tight with a pair of pliers I guess they would be OK.

At the moment there is a carabiner on one of the lines that came with the boat, so far I haven't been able to find any more in any of the shops here apart from the stupid little things you get as keyrings which are obviously no use. But to my inexperienced eye they seem to be a more secure means of attaching lines to places like the ring on the bow - tying a knot is impossible as I can only just reach the ring on the outside without falling &&&& over &&& into the oggin! no way I could do a knot there and not even sure if I could do up a shackle on there unless I did it from outside the boat, maybe on a short mooring line which I could pass back into the boat and clip onto the inner ring when the boat is in use, which is an idea I picked up while searching on here.

Any thoughts or advice please? Are shackles safe enough to use (I suppose I could wire the pins) or should I use carabiners, or something else completely? Basically, due to it often being windy here, I want to end up with a reasonably quick mooring system, all lines made to length, so I can just whistle up to the mooring click-clunk and I'm there - the RIB catches a fair bit of wind as I found out yesterday and you haven't got a lot of time between knocking the motor into neutral and being out of grab range of whatever you are alongside. The only snag is that I'm going to have to order some carabiners if that is the best solution, as you don't seem to be able to buy anything suitable here.

A related question - does anybody have any recommendations for good mail-order suppliers for this sort of stuff, who are happy to export? I've found a couple of mail order places via Google, just wondered if anybody can recommend any others please? Otherwise I shall put them on my shopping list for when I come over in July - I hope there's a decent chandlery somewhere in West Sussex, there are lots of boats at Shoreham so I guess there will be something around there which is close to where I will be.

Thanks

Stephen
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Old 25 March 2006, 14:46   #2
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Sam Miller ordered stuff from them whilst he was here- and they were happy to send it ex vat - which I think sorta covered the post costs. Said they had a few customers out there I seem to remember.
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Old 25 March 2006, 14:53   #3
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I use 2 climbing karrabiners for my yoke on the transom.

They tend to need washing with fresh water fairly regularly and the gates can get jammed or a least very stiff if your not careful.


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Old 25 March 2006, 15:07   #4
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Carabiners

I would go with Carabiners at least you can also use them to clip on or around items when alongside or what ever.
Now we do stock them and if you want will see if we can send them out as our other shop next door is a chandlers, im sure we sent an item out not so long ago to FI think it was electronics.
Paul
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Old 25 March 2006, 15:11   #5
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Don't use carabiners or carbine hooks. I've had them unclip by some mystical means on two occasions. Once was a loss, the other time it stayed hooked to the boat, luckily. You can get carabiners with screw lock rings, I have some but I've not put them to the test.
What I use for anchoring, and intend to continue using, are rapid links. You do need a spanner to nip them up but that's a small price to pay for total security. Try; http://www.marine-hardware.co.uk/aca...ckles_295.html

They appear to do export. Their service is excellent. I received stuff this week, next day delivery a fiver.

I do use carbine hooks for casual mooring lines but I'd tie them off if leaving for a while or the boat was heaving a bit.
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Old 25 March 2006, 16:01   #6
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This place is just like LR4x4, post a question and you can guarantee it will have been answered by the next time you check in a couple of hours later

A combination of carabiners and a couple of those Rapid Links for things not requiring regular uncoupling might be just the thing then.

The only thing that worries me about carabiners is that the "mystical means of uncoupling" might include somebody on their way home from a pub.... the Rapid Links would at least need a spanner (or a knife to cut the rope) which is more likely to be malice than somebody with too many beers under their belt.

The Sea-Screw ones with the screw nut on look like a good compromise too.

Thanks for the quick answers
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Old 25 March 2006, 16:17   #7
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For dock lines, I use a stainless carabiner from a chandler. West Marine has them listed as:
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs...allpartial/0/0

For things that need to be secure (I find this more while diving than on-board, btw) I use a twist-lock carabiner like this:
http://www.rei.com/online/store/Prod...ory_rn=4500680 (takes a quarter turn of the gate to unlock it; closes by itself.)

My dock lines are connected to D rings on the tube; I use the stainless biners there. I do make sure that as the line comes under tension, the gate is loose, rather than crammed against the tube.

I use the locking biner for game bags and fish stringers while diving; I've had a stringer with a 25 lb halibut come off when using a single non-locking biner (I noticed it and got it back...)

Bottom line: for anything that may twist, use a locking system. For stuff that's not likely to twist, non-locking should be fine.

For anchoring, I used to use a locking biner, or 2 non-locking biners with gates facing opposite (didn't have a cleat on the old boat.)

jky
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Old 25 March 2006, 16:24   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BogMonster
This place is just like LR4x4, post a question and you can guarantee it will have been answered by the next time you check in a couple of hours later
Be wary of alloy in salt water. Some's good, some's not.
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Old 25 March 2006, 16:24   #9
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Nice to see the locking carabiner you mentioned is made in Wales!!!

Will have to dig out my old climbing gear - doesn't get any use these days....
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Old 25 March 2006, 16:26   #10
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You can convert a normal carabiner to a sort of locker by slipping a lenght of silicone tubing over it - just slide up or down as required.
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Old 25 March 2006, 18:58   #11
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If you look on a few climbing webbsites i'm sure you'll find an explanation of how the "mystical unlocking" occurs. I'll see if i can find one tommorrow when i'm awake...
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Old 26 March 2006, 03:30   #12
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Mystical unlocking?

The one I referenced unlocks by having a collar that extends from the gate over the nose of the opening. By rotating the collar a quarter turn, you line up a slot with the nose, and the gate opens.

Other "locking" carabiners are similar, but you usually have to either pull down on the collar (no slot) or screw it back along the gate (again, no slot.)

There are a few other similar things I've seen (primarily intended for sailing safety harnesses, I think) that have some weird squeeze-to-unlock mechanism, but these things also run $40 to $85; a lot more than the $15-20 that the climbing biners run.

I should have mentioned that a good deal of fresh water rinses and silicone lube is called for with aluminum biners. And, you should plan on replacing them every year or two, as the springs seem to go away after a bit anyway. Most are anodized, so the main corrosion points are drilled spots and places that trap salt water (which means its more salt build up than corrosion, I suppose.)

The SS ones seem to not need any special care (and last a lot longer than the aluminum ones.)

jky
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Old 26 March 2006, 05:25   #13
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When mine's on her mooring, I use a "squeeze to unlock" safety snap hook like this one:
http://www.mailspeedmarine.com/Produ...b-bd5347b61c07
It's tied on the bight to the mooring line about 2 metres down from the bouy, with the bight whipped for good measure. I moor by clipping the snap hook to the external stem eye, then take the 2m bouy line inboard jamming the line in the Valiant's jam cleat and then passing the painter through the bouy's handle and tying it off. Belt and braces, I know, but it means I sleep at night when the wind gets up!

Jim
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Old 26 March 2006, 05:46   #14
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The carabiners I will be getting will be 8mm or 10mm stainless ones, doesn't seem a good idea to economise on something that could cost a lot more if it broke! One of the ones I was looking at I think had a breaking strain of 4200kg which ought to hold on to a 500kg RIB. I believe in overkill though

I see what is meant now - how they might unlock if twisted against something like a tube - but where I am intending to use them, this can't happen as far as I can see. I think I am going to end up using short "slave lines" on the boat and others which will stay attached to the pontoon, in the place I will be probably keeping it long-term there won't be anything else invading my space so I can do that. It will mean the quick-release fittings will be in free space and always under some sort of tension so should be safe enough I hope.
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Old 26 March 2006, 13:03   #15
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I use the screwgate type. (See picture below)

How would this come undone??

I know the basic ones (pic below) can come undone by turning on thereself and then having a load applied.

The process of how they come undone is illustrated in some of the RYA practical course notes.

Chris
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Old 27 March 2006, 02:34   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BogMonster
Scratching my head at the moment as to the most secure means of attaching lines to stuff so that they can be easily removed without faffing around with knots and stuff...Any thoughts or advice please?
Hi Stephen,

For peace of mind, KISS. A knot is easy to do and over the centuries has proved to be pretty reliable. Take your line around the fixture and bring it back to the boat. Bowline or Round turn + 2 half hitches is the sure way to go. I lost a boat after the snap shackle holding the painter to the bow (hard boat!) sprung itself. Never leave the boat unattended relying on a quick release clip.

Love the pics by the way.

Tim'mers.
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Old 27 March 2006, 04:29   #17
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Quote:
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For peace of mind, KISS. A knot is easy to do and over the centuries has proved to be pretty reliable.
Tim'mers.
True, fair point...

I am using two lines on both bow and stern at the moment, and will be keeping it that way as I am paranoid about losing it! One to the outer loop on the fibreglass bit of the bow, and one to the point on the tube, and on the stern, double lines back to the point on the tube and then tied back to the A frame "just in case" (decent lashing eye on the transom still to be fitted). It was bouncing like hell again last night but still there on the way to work this morning (can't find a "phew mops sweaty brow" smiley ). We seem to have had a month's worth of NNE wind in the last five days - typical somebody needs to tell the Met Office that the prevailing winds here are supposed to be westerly!!

I guess the best answer is to have one quick-release line on each end for clunk-click mooring, and one properly attached one to use as backup when leaving the boat. I think that is what I will be doing, next time I take it out of the water. Not gonna try and splice a line on to the outer ring while leaning over the bow though - it would be just asking for a big splash and some swearing I think I'll do that bit on dry land...

Thanks for all the replies
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