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Old 12 October 2006, 06:29   #11
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with the fast track courses set up with the RYA they are passing out so many yacht masters its a joke. really they should make the exams harder and not except people with less the 6,000 nm instead of 2,500nm this would stop all the fast track that goes on in the RYA.

when i arrive in new zealand i have to do a poxy boatmans license and navigation test even though i have just finished my cls 4. The Rya and MCA say how world wide they are and that other countries are looking up to them so to speak. I have never arrived in a country with my tickets and not had to explain who the MCA are.

It would be far better for the RYA/MCA to separate completely, so as we know who the really mariners are.
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Old 12 October 2006, 06:42   #12
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Just for your interest RYA do do spot inspections on centres and have been known to put their own candidates onto suspect course to observe and gain evadence.
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Old 12 October 2006, 11:47   #13
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Yachtmaster International an American Company are approved by the MCA
BSAC Diver Coxswain approved by the MCA
RLSS UK Rescue Helm training programme approved by MCA as club's can gain SAR recognition
Same goes for the SLS GB Rescue Helm

So it seems other organisations can gain MCA approval to run training
Agree with Tim and can also add BWS to the list, the MCA recognises them to deliver powerboat and icc certificates as well.

If you want to become recognised by the MCA to run a training scheme then go for it, personally I think that as long as we have the RYA to do this for us then why would anyone else want to go through all that grief and hassel. They do after all do a good job and do not charge much for what they do.
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Old 12 October 2006, 11:55   #14
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with the fast track courses set up with the RYA they are passing out so many yacht masters its a joke. really they should make the exams harder and not except people with less the 6,000 nm instead of 2,500nm this would stop all the fast track that goes on in the RYA.

when i arrive in new zealand i have to do a poxy boatmans license and navigation test even though i have just finished my cls 4. The Rya and MCA say how world wide they are and that other countries are looking up to them so to speak. I have never arrived in a country with my tickets and not had to explain who the MCA are.

It would be far better for the RYA/MCA to separate completely, so as we know who the really mariners are.
A good point.

Not so long ago, the RYA were happy for "their" centres to allow people to do an RYA PB2 course Mon/Tue, then instructors course Wed > Fri, then certify them as instructors! So you had an instructor with nil experience teaching others....great idea!

Agree with you Tim on the availablility of courses other than the RYA, but this is hardly stuff aimed at the general public. Most rescue organisations have taught way above PB2 or Advanced for years anyway.

It's the monopoly handed to the RYA for legal requirement licencing that annoys me most. When we get compulsory licencing, and it is when not if, its just a matter of when Brussels gets round to it, do we then expect the RYA to be the sole certification authority on behalf of the MCA?
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Old 12 October 2006, 12:43   #15
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Havener,

I'm not really sure what your problem is, you seem to be repeating old arguments that other people have rebutted. It may be worth remembering that no organisation is perfect, and non are all knowing.

Why does the delegation of authority the MCA have upset you so much? You make the point of taxpayers money going to the MCA - Leisure boats are not regulated, and as the RYA is aimed mainly at the Leisure Market, why should taxpayers have to pay for that? Better, surely, that the MCA delegate responsibility for some certification to the RYA, so that the small percentage of people attending an RYA/RLSS/BWS/BSAC Course/Using an RYA/RLSS/BWS/BSAC centre can take exams, with people who have, by definition, been approved by the MCA to act as examiners?

Do you not think that the differing skillsets of instructors found in this huge variety of organisations authourised by the MCA can only promote better boating for their customers, as it is more relevant training?

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Not so long ago, the RYA were happy for "their" centres to allow people to do an RYA PB2 course Mon/Tue, then instructors course Wed > Fri, then certify them as instructors! So you had an instructor with nil experience teaching others....great idea!
I came across a similarly ill informed and chinese whispered argument from a Naval acquaintance the other day. The RYA Scheme used to be very much focused around dinghy sailors, and dinghy instructors. In order to be a Dinghy Instructor (trained/assessed by a coach) you had to have a powerboat level 2 certificate. At that time, to be allowed to teach the powerboat courses, if you were a Senior Dinghy Instructor, you could. As the RYA found more and more leisure powerboaters coming to them for courses (and remember - that is how it happened, the leisure powerboaters went to RYA centres, as there were few other places to go) the RYA started (and is still continuing to develope further) reworking their powerboat courses and instructor schemes to better suit a changing market. Along the way, the Powerboat Level 2 became recognised for an International Certificate of Competence, and the Advanced (I think it used to be a level 5?) became endorseable to use commercially.

In order to become an RYA Powerboat Instructor, you have to have 5 years, or 1 year if it's part of your full time job using a powerboat. You then attend a 3 day course run by a powerboat trainer, and moderated by another, and if successful you may then teach powerboat levels 1 & 2. If you don't hold your level 2 before the course, but are an experienced powerboat cox'n, it is conceivable that you could do your level 2 by direct assessment before the course.

Now, at that stage, all you will be qualified to teach are Levels 1 & 2, which are Completion certificates. In order to teach the Advanced and the (relatively) new Intermediate course, you would have to be an Advanced Certificate holder yourself, an experienced instructor, and attend a 2 day endorsement. The RYA recognised that they had an issue with Advanced Instructors providing certificates that became commercially endorseable, so to bring things in line with the Yachtmaster/Coastal Skipper Certificates of Competence, there is now an Advanced Exam, conducted by a Powerboat Trainer (or Yachtmaster Examiner who has been approved by the RYA). So, it is an examined certificate, conducted by someone approved to MCA standards.

As to never having taught anybody - there is little provision anywhere to teach a course without being an Instructor, and a good Instructors course will teach you the skills you need to pass on knowledge and techniques. No instructor is perfect, and we all learn from each course taught, and experiences gained along the way - this is the same across many organisations. On a lot of Instructor Courses, students are used so that the Trainers can assess and hone your skills.

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Agree with you Tim on the availablility of courses other than the RYA, but this is hardly stuff aimed at the general public.
So, who are RYA/BWS/RLSS/BSAC courses aimed at then? I think you're missing the point that they are all aimed at the general public, just a public with different interests/end uses. If I was looking to dive, I'd go to BSAC. If I was looking to use a powerboat for leisure, I'd go to the RYA. For none of those organisations do you have to be anything other than "general public" to take one of their courses.

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Most rescue organisations have taught way above PB2 or Advanced for years anyway.
They are teaching people to do very different things, often in very different environments. If you look closely I think you'll find that the RNLI, GAFIRS, League of Venturers, and several other rescue services actually include RYA Certification in their courses. They also bolt on specific elements that most people attending the courses aimed at the general public would never use. Yes, their crews generally get more experience in towing, mob's, search patterns etc, but I know an RNLI cox'n who can't tie a boat up alongside, or launch and recover, because it's something he has never had to do. We teach this on RYA Courses, as it is something they will have to do!

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It's the monopoly handed to the RYA for legal requirement licencing that annoys me most.
But as people have already shown you - the RYA do not have a monopoly. Just because they are the biggest, doesn't make them the only ones! There are plenty of other routes to commercial and leisure tickets, the RYA is not, as some would have you believe, the be all and end all.

Quote:
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When we get compulsory licencing, and it is when not if, its just a matter of when Brussels gets round to it, do we then expect the RYA to be the sole certification authority on behalf of the MCA?
Who is the authority for driving licenses? How many different driving licenses can you get? Answer: you can get one. However, you can take it at many different centres.

The MCA does not have the power to be everywhere, and do everything, and it would expend a vast amount of your "taxpayers money" if it tried. They have delegated responsibility to the RYA, who as I have already pointed out, deal largely with leisure users, who should not have their leisure pastimes funded by taxpayers surely? If compulsory licensing for Leisure users comes in, would you like to see that subsidised by the MCA, or would you prefer that a private association administers the qualifications on their behalf?
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Old 12 October 2006, 13:34   #16
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On the yachts that i have skippered a yacht masters get's you a deck hand job, if you are lucky. (and its not just me who works like this)

Shows how well the RYA do in there training, one of there highest qualifications get's you a cleaning job in the crews heads

In a few Ocean Races i have done i have not sailed with a RYA qualified person yet. shows how good they are dont you think?

The whole Rya test needs to be step up a gear and made respectable with in the marine industry like it once was.

how many RYA centers are there in the solent? lots
how can they make sure everyone is by the book?
how do you do the trailer part tim on your COURSES?
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Old 12 October 2006, 13:52   #17
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one of there highest qualifications get's you a cleaning job in the crews heads
noww i noe wy yew orlwaiys smell ov domestoss


gaRf
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Old 12 October 2006, 14:34   #18
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gArf what's that signature all about?

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Old 12 October 2006, 15:05   #19
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no garfish thats the difference between a yacht master, class 4 people who smell like roses. bite bite
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Old 13 October 2006, 03:26   #20
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how do you do the trailer part tim on your COURSES?
Think you mean me so I will explain For the RYA it is as follows
Knowledge of the subject
The subject will be breifly explained, Familiarisation during the course and information on where to find out more.

Understands the Subject
The subject will be covered in greater depth and you will be asked to demonstrate a basic understanding and go away from the course able to further develop your own skill in this area.Confirmation of your understanding of the subject may be acheived in a number of way's, such as a short quiz at the end of the course.

CAN demonstrate a level of proficiency in the subject.
The subject will be covered in great depth, including background theory,practical demonstrations by the Instructor and repeated practice by yourself until you can demonstrate good skills in this subject.


Section A
Launching and Recovery
Knowledge of :
Use of trailer or launching trolley
Considerations of launching and sea conditions including hazards and obstructions
Number of persons required to launch and recover
Construction , width and condition of slipway

Steep/slippery slipways , beach launching lee shores
Care of trailer bearings ,hitch ,lashings , ties lights and winch
Trailer Parking.

It can and is covered in detail for my students and there are plenty of examples of different slipway's on the river . You have to remember that the level two is not only for ribs but for small sports boats and not every one wants to drag their boat in and out of the water .Where they lose out on launch and recovery they gain in Marina Berthing (part of the Intermediate course where available)
Like all peeps looking to get training it pay's to talk to the school first if you want Launch and recovery then I can alway's recommend a school that covers this in greater detail. If own boat not a problem as we can start the course while she is on the trailer.
Hope that helps .

For the RLSS its all practical beach, river or lake depends on where I am teaching .
Hope that helps on that bit as well
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