RIB-X/Falcon 700

[Manos]

< Split from the RIBEX 2004 thread JK >

WOW Paul
The boat seems OK to me and have taken it all over and in very variable weather and sea state conditions.
I don't know why you felt like that. Have they changed the desing or something?? Very strange.
If you ever come to Greece (I hope you all do) will take you on mine and have a second ride see what you think.
I may be biased though, so if any one else went on the 700RSR I would like to know what you thought of it. Really I do.

[jackeen]

I'm not technical when it comes to boats and don't know my arse from my elbow as all too often I'm told so it could have been the set up or the driver or both or whatever.


When running and landing it was completly on its port side - not a little - alot. If he had even a little air I felt like I was going to be flipped out constantly. he gave aload of bollix and it was totalbollix about how he was demonstrating how the boat recovers when it comes down on one of the sponsons.

Up wind down wind made no differance


Couldn't wait to get off.

225 honda on the tail

As I said IMHO and I know feck all.

Paul

[Manos]

Yes I know what you mean Paul about the side thing. I agree 100%
This happens to someone who does not have enough experience in driving this type of boat or has not set up the outboard motor correctly.
I have had the same problem (and a few more) at first but after a few weeks of constant trying (9am to 9 pm at sea and Joanna complaining!!) and a lot of money spent in petrol and oil, I managed to find how to handle it.
I also had some help on how to trim it etc from the Falcon guys. Is not an easy boat to handle. You need time to learn it.
I think that the wable thing apart from wrong trim, is mainly due to engine set up too.
Do you mean that they put a 225 on it?? Is too big for that hull!!
I do not think that the 700RSR hull can handle more than 200 (and that is too much, I know I've got one). The optimum is 150.
Is a long write up about how and what to do with the trim and throttle and I think an entertaining talk over a bottle of wine during a warm summer evening at the beach or on the boat
Cheers

[Alan]

Manos,

Have you read RIB International's review of the Rib X (Falcon I assume) 700?!

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by Manos

I may be biased though, so if any one else went on the 700RSR I would like to know what you thought of it. Really I do.

It was quite simply the worst RIB ride that I can remember. Seriously.

After all the talk about Falcons here I thought it would be good to see for myself what it was really like. I had seen the bad write up in RIB International but thought it was probably a one off, badly set up boat. After all, it's apparently got a great race pedigree and it does look like it ought to do the business . . .

The seating design was disasterous which meant that we were clinging on to stay into the boat. Not a good start! I now understand a bit more why the boat tests in RIB International are so fixated on the seats; if you can't sit securely to start with, it makes it very difficult to judge whether the boat itself is actually any good.

Even making allowances for the seating though, the ride was harsh and as noted by Paul the boat always landed hard on the port chine. I'm not convinced that the demo driver was the best ambassador for the boat, but it was more than just bad driving.

It may be that the boat was badly rigged, in which case the importers need some serious technical help as they seemed to reckon that it was fine. If it wasn't badly rigged, then it's just a bad boat.

I was told that the boat was an "in the air boat, not an on the water boat", that it needs "quite a lot of time to learn to drive it properly" but at the same time it was a "very forgiving" boat. None of which inspired confidence.

From my experience yesterday I wouldn't want one if it was offered to me for nothing.

John

[Manos]

No Alan, I haven't unfortunately. I am in Greece and I only get the mag in the UK. Wife is sick and tired of boats so she hasn't posted it
What was it saying. I genuinly like to know as I may be completely biased about the boat and have to reconsider. I am taking out again tomorrow for a test hard ride just to make sure. But so far it has been OK.

[Manos]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

The seating design was disasterous which meant that we were clinging on to stay into the boat. Not a good start! I now understand a bit more why the boat tests in RIB International are so fixated on the seats; if you can't sit securely to start with, it makes it very difficult to judge whether the boat itself is actually any good.

If they do not have the bucket type seats I have on mine is WRONG and I would agree that is VERY dangerous to have the seating arrangement with the cousions as in high speeds and in jumps you can get off it. You need bucket type seats.

Originally Posted by John Kennett

Even making allowances for the seating though, the ride was harsh and as noted by Paul the boat always landed hard on the port chine. I'm not convinced that the demo driver was the best ambassador for the boat, but it was more than just bad driving.

This must be wrong engine set up. We had the same experience in Greece when we fitted a 700RSR with 150 Suzuki 4stroke. Suzukis have 2 caviation plates. One on top of the engine and the other just a bit higher. When we set it up first with the engine full down the boat jumped like a gazelle, wabled etc. When we lifted the engine up one notch it went streight no ups or down or wables. Also trimming the boat correctly is very important. If you do not trim the boat the nose goes up an down and it wables (I think on the port side).

Originally Posted by John Kennett

It may be that the boat was badly rigged, in which case the importers need some serious technical help as they seemed to reckon that it was fine. If it wasn't badly rigged, then it's just a bad boat.

I cannot say anything here as I do not know what was the rigging like. I suppose they went for cheap and you get what you pay for. If they economised on the rigging ..... is bad for them.

Originally Posted by John Kennett

I was told that the boat was an "in the air boat, not an on the water boat", that it needs "quite a lot of time to learn to drive it properly" but at the same time it was a "very forgiving" boat. None of which inspired confidence.

Is both 'air' and 'water' boat. It depends how you drive it. Yes you do need quite a long time to learn how to handle it and probaly they need sometime too
And NO, IS NOT A 'FORGIVING BOAT' although sometimes when I did a few stupid things on it I thought that I came out of the situation in one piece cause the boat forgave my mistake. In general, I think that this boat is a hard boat to drive correctly.

Hey, I must invite you all in Greece foir a test drive

As I said tomorrow 1st thing, I'm on it again just to re-re-re-check for the 1000sent time. Check this port wable thing again and I will be 100% honset on what I find.

FEWWWWWWWWW!!! Now you all have made me re-think about it.

PS Also I think that 225 engine as I said previously is too much for this hull. This engine in my view was a BIIIIG mistake. Big and heavy!

[Alan]

Manos,
RIB International does not as a rule (IMHO) tend to be that critical of RIBs (dare I say not wanting to risk advertisers wrath ) but this was for them at least a fairly direct and damning report. You might like to get your mrs to send it to you.

JK knows what he's about on RIBS so I'd be concerned. (I hasten to add that Mr Jackeen also knows more than he thinks he does! )

Interestingly enough I was told by one rib.netter at the show that the chap on the Falcon reacted rather unfavourably to him when he saw that he was wearing a rib.net polo shirt.................

[Manos]

OK guys the moment of truth as we saw it today.
Just got back from the beach. Weather is GREAT just a little breeze NNE and sea state calm. Ideal conditions to race a boat.
I will not bother you with photos but with the facts.

The set up: FALCON 700RSR, 200VMax Yamaha with 21" Yam Pro SS prop and 5bhp Aux, A-frame, 100 ltrs fuel, full tank with oil, spare tank with 35 litres of fuel, 7kg anchor, 15 mtrs chain, total of 100 mtrs ropes and 10 life jackets and a life raft. Two persons about 90-95 kgs in weight each. Wind force 3 NNE. Sea state calm. Engine is set up by Falcon in SA and if you need any clarification as to where it is in relation to the transom, hull etc I can give it to you, but right now is too hot to go out and measure things. Area Assimakis beach near Cape Sounion.

1. The problem with the boat leaning on the port side: Yes it does, BUT only at around 40 knots. Before 40 knots and up to 35-36 or so and also pass that point and at 43-45 knots it corrects its self and is on the straight again.

2. Trimming: The boat is very (I MEAN VERY) responsive to trim. As I have said before. With full trim down the nose sticks in the water and is very obvious as the boat leans completely forward. At trim on 2/2.5 (on the Yam trim gauge) the nose comes up quite a lot and up to 4 the boat gains speed, revs go up and comes out of the water completely. At trim 4.5 the boat slows down and you get a noise from the prop. At trim near 4-4.2 if you hit any waves the boat waves up and down (is this the right expression?) we call it in Greece that it behaves like a dolphin, and the trim needs to come down again just a notch and this effect stops.

3. Turning: On a 380 deg turns and at about 30/32 knots with trim at 2-2.5 the boat turns without any problem and comes out of the turn with the same speed as when it went in the turn. On 380 deg turn and at about 47-50 knots with trim down to 1/1.5 the boat tends to slide just a tinny bit mid way and then you can feel the hull (with a small juddering not to the hull but to your body - if this is the right expression again) getting its grip again and carry on as normal. Again the boat comes out of the turn without having lost speed (or in some runs we did lost a couple of knots). There was no prop ventilation at any one point except when we tried a turn at WOT with trim mid way and the result was as you would expect.

5. Speeds: Cruising is comfortable to very comfortable (in this very nice and calm sea and smooth wind state conditions) at 33-35 knots on GPS, 3800 revs and trim at 2.5/3.00 on the Yam trim gauge. At WOT and at 5700 revs with two persons onboard, trim at 3.6-4.0 (this Yam trim gauge goes up and down for some reason but they say is normal) top speed on GPS was between 54-56knots. We made quite a few runs so we got the slowest and the fastest. We felt that with less weight on the boat it may have gone faster, but this is another matter.

6.Safety: At no time we felt unsafe on the boat. I suppose this is because of the bucket type seats I have on it (driver, co-driver and aft bench are all bucket type). The boat felt fine. We felt that the seating arrangement you have described previously (not bucket type seats) is NOT A SAFE arrangement for this type of boat.

7. Throttle/Trim: As I said in previous posts again today we found that to handle the boat correctly one has to play constantly with the trim and the throttle. You cannot just let it go unattended (which I think was the case). We feel that this is a specialists boat (if I can use this expression) and not a boat for mainly recreational purposes (although I use it and I'm happy with that). We do not believe that it should be compared with those RIBs of recreational use. As we feel is comparing a F3 or F2 formula car with a normal car for the road.

9. Finish: As far as I can see my boat looks OK. I'm happy with it and the only thing to say is that the upholstery needed to be a bit more rugged for sea use. However, in the boats that I've just got (640SRs) the upholstery is much (a lot) better than on the 700RSR, I got 2 years ago. I need to see this boat you all went on.

10. Other comments: We feel that to drive this boat correctly, one needs to know how to drive racing boats correctly! May be Cookee (and I'm not joking) should have a go at it. Also you need a lot of time to get familiar with this type of boat, which is very sensitive to even the slightest change on trim, engine position, engine height, engine weight, prop size/pitch, weight distribution etc. The slightest change unbalances the boat.

I do not know if I covered everything but I'm full of salt, so I'm going for a wash.

I have tried to be as impartial as possible and if you feel that I have not (writing in a 2nd language no matter how well one commands is quite difficult you may appreciate) please feel free to make your comments and will try to clarify any points that you may have. If you also want to see any photos or a video of today’s test run, please let me know and will try to download them.

[Nick Hearne]

Manos nice write up you should go in for reporting!
Come on show us some photos!
Nick