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Old 05 July 2012, 04:20   #61
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Whilst navigating down the East coast on our Round Britain trip it was obvious that every single fishing boat in the area (despite regulation) had failed to turn their AIS on - it's very unnerving to see fishing boats pass by lifting and setting crab pots in thick fog! It seems that if they turned it on the competition would see where they are fishing!

Just a bit of trivia
The cobbles from Newcastle to Sherringham (worst around whitby ) have drift nets about 1/2 mile long floating on the surface, some are protected by shot guns (seals)!

You need to check the wind , if its offshore the net is inshore of the cobble, onshore its outside the cobble.
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Old 05 July 2012, 06:52   #62
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All the training in the world doesn't stop people being idiots and the tale from C2 ribs is a perfect example of this. I've seen so many similar incidents (although not so severe) I've lost count - the most severe of which occurred at The Camber, with a husband and wife trying to launch a 6ish metre RIB off a trailer. He was on board barking instructions at her, she was clearly not sure of herself and ended up letting go of the winch handle. She then attempted to grab hold of it again whilst it was freewheeling...! Thankfully she didn't actually manage to get close enough to break her arm.

The skipper being qualified doesn't help if the crew are unqualified, clueless and unwilling / unable to take instruction. This seems to be the case with husband and wife crews (not all) where the husband is busy being all in charge and the wife doesn't want to be told what to do.

Mandatory training will just end up with the standards being reduced to meet the lowest common denominator and a niche of 'approved' training providers making a mint.

IMO A far better use of resources would be placing infomercials on sites like EBay telling people how to prepare before putting to sea and maybe even having personnel at popular slips during the summer weekends to actually TALK to people and offer advice.

All that said, I'm a fan of Darwin. We live in a society that is far too protective and there are no consequences to peoples stupidity. If people want to go out and kill themselves on a boat, let them.
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Old 05 July 2012, 07:59   #63
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Originally Posted by Sixy_the_red View Post
All the training in the world doesn't stop people being idiots and the tale from C2 ribs is a perfect example of this. I've seen so many similar incidents (although not so severe) I've lost count - the most severe of which occurred at The Camber, with a husband and wife trying to launch a 6ish metre RIB off a trailer. He was on board barking instructions at her, she was clearly not sure of herself and ended up letting go of the winch handle. She then attempted to grab hold of it again whilst it was freewheeling...! Thankfully she didn't actually manage to get close enough to break her arm.

The skipper being qualified doesn't help if the crew are unqualified, clueless and unwilling / unable to take instruction. This seems to be the case with husband and wife crews (not all) where the husband is busy being all in charge and the wife doesn't want to be told what to do.

Mandatory training will just end up with the standards being reduced to meet the lowest common denominator and a niche of 'approved' training providers making a mint.

IMO A far better use of resources would be placing infomercials on sites like EBay telling people how to prepare before putting to sea and maybe even having personnel at popular slips during the summer weekends to actually TALK to people and offer advice.

All that said, I'm a fan of Darwin. We live in a society that is far too protective and there are no consequences to peoples stupidity. If people want to go out and kill themselves on a boat, let them.
At last I've been banging on in the same vein since we started out in the LED thread. I work in an industry that has so many training schemes & tinpot qualifications it's unreal. It's a money making machine & doesn't result in fewer accidents. We just have overqualified idiots You can't buy experience in Tesco
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Old 05 July 2012, 08:09   #64
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Ermmm i think people are getting a bit confused here as to what myself, Tonto and maybe a few others are wanting....

Sure its easy to find examples of a lack of ability in the way people HANDLE their boats.... Christ i can show you pictures of that nearly every day. Some people are naturally going to more skilled and coordinated than others.

What i want to see is a mandatory certificate covering all basic safety topics and basic rules of the road... Only yesterday one of our launches was attempting to exit the Hamble and was nearly ran aground on the NW side of the mouth of the river by a couple of sailboats entering the river. They gradually (and blatantly) pushed our launch to the North to the point that it nearly ran aground off Hamble point marina.....
I can supply you enough examples of this type of behaviour to keep you guys entertained for months.
I wonder how many shouts the RNLI get per year to people that were ill equipped or ill informed each year....hmmmm

And on the subject of introducing a 'drink boating' law........ Well keep the great excuses against it coming guys, its putting a wonderful smile on my face.....Most entertainment iv had in months. You guys must have expressed similar views when the seatbelt law was introduced or when the motoring drink drive law was toughed up..... Bet you don't look back now and complain that you were being over-regulated as you soberly 'clunk-click' before you drive off though do you?

I also presume you lot agree with the law that Masters of commercial shipping should be held accountable if found drunk in charge?..........hmmm, .interesting.

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Old 05 July 2012, 14:36   #65
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And on the subject of introducing a 'drink boating' law........ Well keep the great excuses against it coming guys, its putting a wonderful smile on my face.....Most entertainment iv had in months. You guys must have expressed similar views when the seatbelt law was introduced or when the motoring drink drive law was toughed up..... Bet you don't look back now and complain that you were being over-regulated as you soberly 'clunk-click' before you drive off though do you?
I have worn a seat belt on every trip since I was 17, long before it became a mandatory requirement, I also don't drink. However any law has to be enforceable and proportionate to the risk and this one isn't.

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I also presume you lot agree with the law that Masters of commercial shipping should be held accountable if found drunk in charge?..........hmmm, .interesting
Well actually, yes. You are at work not at play and the consequences of an incident potentially far worse. In certain circumstances special, and enforceable, rules need to be made. I accepted when I worked for the railway, as did everyone else, the fact that we could be fired for half the drink driving limit. special circumstances, special rules.

However where do you draw the line on madatory training. A kid on an inflateable canoe? A man and his boy out on a small dinghy with a small motor? A SIB with an outboard? A RIB? a sailboat?
The commercial size of >21m seems sensible to me.
I doubt any drink driving law can be enforced and if it cannot be enforced there is no point, especially as the risk is so small in comparison to many other activities such as skiing or climbing.
There has to be some element of taking responsibility for yourself when not at work and I would only support prosecutions when folk are found to be under the influence if involved in an accident rather than chasing folk about with a bag.
I understand where you are coming from as professional seagoers and the prejudice against "leisure" boaters, however I used to go to sea on large working vessels and professionals are not innocents in this respect either. Don't get me started on examples!
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Old 06 July 2012, 04:29   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookee View Post
Whilst navigating down the East coast on our Round Britain trip it was obvious that every single fishing boat in the area (despite regulation) had failed to turn their AIS on - it's very unnerving to see fishing boats pass by lifting and setting crab pots in thick fog! It seems that if they turned it on the competition would see where they are fishing!
Cookee, I thought it was only commercial boats over 300gt that had to carry AIS by law. Have they phased it in for all commercial boats now?
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Old 06 July 2012, 04:31   #67
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Cookee, I thought it was only commercial boats over 300gt that had to carry AIS by law. Have they phased it in for all commercial boats now?
I may be poorly informed ...........
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Old 06 July 2012, 05:02   #68
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I may be poorly informed ...........
It'd explain why the crabbers & small boats weren't showing up
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Old 06 July 2012, 05:04   #69
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I have worn a seat belt on every trip since I was 17, long before it became a mandatory requirement, I also don't drink. However any law has to be enforceable and proportionate to the risk and this one isn't.

Well actually, yes. You are at work not at play and the consequences of an incident potentially far worse. .

I understand where you are coming from as professional seagoers and the prejudice against "leisure" boaters, however I used to go to sea on large working vessels and professionals are not innocents in this respect either. Don't get me started on examples!
So why was the seatbelt law brought in? there was a lot of advertising, remember "clunk click every trip" so if the training advertising route is so effective why did the government decide that we needed a law, because people did not listen to the campaigns and do listen when it affects thier pockets.

Todays seafarers have changed out of all recognition to when you were probably at sea. When I 1st started in 1985 it was more or less maditory to get drunk most nights, and there have been shocking examples, as there is in any industry. However due to a capt joe hazelwood (Exxon Valdez), who was incidentally found not guilty of being drunk in charge, we now have very tight rules. Half the UK driving limit, at all times, when on or off duty. People rarely drink to excess, and we do have alcohol on board, but it is controlled.
We also have random drug testing, and I have not heard of anyone in a company of 25 ships dismissed in the last 5 years due to drugs. Not sure all lesiure boaters could pass a screening test either.

However i do resent the comment that we are predjudiced against the lesiure boaters. I enjoy boating, and although I dont have a RIB at present am actively looking for one, so am I predjudiced against myself? not at all. I do spend half my life on the ocean, and at sea, so a guess i know a little about it, and conditions encountered.

We train the hell out of people, and we are professional. Yes the commercial skippers who drink are getting caught, and they normally go down for it, a year or so is the norm, plus their jobs and salaries are ruined, and rightly so.
However the safety issue is still there for both lesiure and commercial vessel operators. A fully loaded RIB, or sailboat, maybe 6 persons or more, travelling at 30+ knots has the potential to kill them all, plus anyone else they decide to crash into, plus the rescue services have to put themselves at risk as well.

I cannot recall any fatal accident on a commercial vessel that was a cause of the skipper being drunk in the last 5 years, (in British waters) but according to the MAIB, 45 dead in 6 years on lesiure boats where alcohol was a factor, and you tell me it is not a problem?

There have been a number of incidents over the last few years with small vessel running aground, and some collisions mostly where the OOW has been fatigued or tired, and there was recently a small coaster had a collision with a ferry in ireland, but no fatalities. The ones running aground, usually cause damage to the ships, however for lesiure craft damage if people are drunk they would not report it to MAIB, so those figures are not available. Incidentally the guy who was drunk and collided with a ferry is looking at 2 years.... No injuries, and no pollution, but then he deserves being thrown in jail because he gets paid to work on ships.

I just do not see the difference between potentially killing half a dozen on a lesiure boat, or potentially killing people with a merchant ship. They would still be just as dead.

One final point then I suppose if i was driving a car for lesiure that means I dont need to follow the drink drive rules then.........
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Old 06 July 2012, 05:08   #70
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it's very unnerving to see fishing boats pass by lifting and setting crab pots in thick fog!
Not half as unnerving as it would be to be hauling lines in the nice quiet fog and then the Sterling bursts onto the scene...

````........ L_____/
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