Recovering somone from the water

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by Stoo

I also appreciate that no one has begun lecturing me on the evils of diving on my own. That has not always been the case in diving forums!

Yeah, well...

What I've noticed on a lot of diving forums (and boating forums, to be truthful) is that while typing on the keyboard, people tend to go by the book and go a bit further than frown on anyone operating on the fringe.

I can't lecture you, as I usually (well, maybe a bit less than usually) dive solo, or virtually solo (I shoot pics; most of my buddies don't. We don't spend a lot of time very close together, as they're trying to see as much as possible, and I'm trying to see less of them while I shoot. With those that do have a camera, separation helps in not scaring the wildlife, keeping silting to minimum, etc.)

jky

[Clive]

This post is very pertinent to my situation as my wife and I spend a lot of time discussing how to retrieve her from the water.
My missus is parralysed from the waist down.. Horse riding accident. but she adores driving the ribs we have owned
and on a number of occasions has expressed a desire to take
a dip but unfortunately we have struggled to find a dry suit for her.
so it has not happend yet.
Now after seeing this post I feel much more confident about recovery.
She obviously would not be able to kick to assist me so legs first is a super idea.
Thankyou very much!!

but of course I would wear a life jacket
Clive

[Jimbo]

Originally Posted by Jono Garton

I agree every one is free to criticise, however its just discouraging people from posting useful info.

Perhaps given that many forum members know you are an Advanced Powerboat Instructor and Principal of a busy centre (and are planning on taking your RYA Powerboating further) a small note to the effect that you would reccomend lifejackets would have been in order? Just a thought - but you are in a position where what you say and post (not least as a trade member) sets an example to others...

On the MOB method - having tried this a couple of times, it really is quite easy, even with large people (when I say large, I'm talking about this size of laser (rich) or even bigger!). It's easiest with 2, but still do-able with one, you just have to watch you don't give the casualty a dunking while you're maneuvering them into position!

I've found in the couple of times I've practiced it that because 90% of their weight is taken by the tubes, it's a simple roll rather than a lift. Easy Peasy.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Jono Garton

My point was I,m not posting about driving in fog or someone wrapping my desk in paper, just posting some pics to help people, if they end up in this situation another of way easily getting someone back in the boat.

I agree every one is free to criticise, however its just discouraging people from posting useful info.

I don't see how a constructive discussion discourages people from posting.

Had the comments been completely irrelevant, abusive or thread drift then I could understand your attitude, but as it was a relevant point (particularly for anyone else that might choose to practice following your method) - it comes across as though you are infallable or not open to constructive criticism. THAT attitude - makes people less likely to offer criticism or advice.

Originally Posted by Jono Garton

dont try to hard or they will go out the otherside of the boat.

Presumably that applies to the crew recovering the MoB too?

[tinker]

Wow, thats a clever way, legs first and all. Thanks for sharing it

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by jyasaki

Personally, I think the best first course of action for a solo aid provider (assuming difficulty in getting the victim back onboard), would be to get on the VHF and yell for help. You wouldn't want them going overboard as well, or getting injured in the recovery.

jky

I ansolutely agree that the radio is the first thing to be used in an emergency but that wasn't the question that matey asked was it| If i recall correctly it was how's that small lady gonna get big old me in the boat.

Can you give me four examples of why a diver might be unconcious ? I am presuming theres no Sharks or stingrays off the coast of Tobermoray

[jyasaki]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

I ansolutely agree that the radio is the first thing to be used in an emergency but that wasn't the question that matey asked was it| If i recall correctly it was how's that small lady gonna get big old me in the boat.

My idea was that she isn't.

Call for help, and wait for the cavalry. That is actually an agreement that an instructor buddy of mine (about 300lbs) and I (about 170lbs) have. Anything happens, I do what I can to keep him comfortable and/or alive, but he's in the water 'til the Coast Guard (or other assistance) arrives.

Can you give me four examples of why a diver might be unconcious ? I am presuming theres no Sharks or stingrays off the coast of Tobermoray

Probably an incorrect assumption.

1) rapid ascent and resulting air embolism.
2) near drowning
3) contaminated air fill leading to CO poisoning
4) Decompression sickness causing stroke (bubbles in the bloodstream.)
5) hypothermic coma
6) Marine life poisoning (jelly stings, reaction to rockfish spines, etc.)
7) Heart attack
8) Odd pressure/drug interactions

None are likely to occur in your average dive (and there are probably several dozen more that can be listed, and the list grows as you depart from "recreational" scuba parameters), but they remain a small possibility nonetheless.

jky

[havener]

Thanks for the pics Jono, interesting techinique.....but....

The concept of this frightens the life out of me.

Just discussed it with out MO, who happens to be an othopaedic specialist. He is still gibbering in a corner.

Risks are :

1. The spine is just NOT designed to take load like that. Nearly all the pulling force is in a lateral movement on the shoulder blades and transferred to the base of the spine.

2. When practiced by non professionals, the first thing that will happen is someone light will be yanked aboard and impact unprotected head on console / dive bottle rack / anchor chain / etc.

3. The risk of strain injury to the person doing the pulling is significantly above that acceptable.

4. Anything which significantly deviates from keeping the casualty horizontal after an unexpected entry into cold water will put extra strain on the heart.

To be constructive, preferred methods of recovery would be :

First - try the "dunk twice and pull under the shoulders" method which uses bouyancy to aid the operation (remove any oars stored on the tubes first)

Second - roped log roll over the tubes with lines under the casualty.

Obviously, if the person is fully able to aid themselves, use the engine skeg method described in another post.

If the RNLI are teaching this, I'm appalled and will take it up with them and the MCA. Frankly, its dangerous.

Simon

[BogMonster]

What do folks think of carrying a big ratchet strap in the boat and using it as a makeshift "winch" to help pull fat blokes back on board? You could put it on to the mooring cleat on the other side and hook it onto the lifejacket recovery ring or even strap round under their arms. Even if it didn't do the job alone, you could take up the tension, give them a heave aboard, take up a bit more, heave a bit more and so on.

Its a bit crude but it might work and for a tenner or so it would be worth a try?

[Jono Garton]

Simon

When you have tried this method, post again, it really doesn't put any strain on either party. Its about using weight not strength.

The old dunk em pull em is far more dangerous for both parties.

Jono

[havener]

Jono,

We'll try a few goes over the next few weeks from one of the daughter carft, and see how it goes. As I understand it, our MO's opinion was based on the distribution of stresses on tissues, i.e. muscle and cartlidge. I'm not arguing with him on that one!

Agree the dunk method wasn't brilliant, which is why the engine skegs method and secondly the log roll would be my two priorities.

Can understand the concerns about heart strain though.

Will let you know once we've had a go....

[DM]

Originally Posted by havener

Anything which significantly deviates from keeping the casualty horizontal after an unexpected entry into cold water will put extra strain on the heart

A stated in the very first post, this method is for 'able' people, not classed as a casualty who don't need to be kept horizontal because of injury/hypothermia and it does work well in practice especially if the tube is wet. For me, it's a good lift because it's more pivot technique than pure strength.


DM

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Can you give me four examples of why a diver might be unconcious ? I am presuming theres no Sharks or stingrays off the coast of Tobermoray

Originally Posted by jyasaki

1) rapid ascent and resulting air embolism.
2) near drowning
3) contaminated air fill leading to CO poisoning
4) Decompression sickness causing stroke (bubbles in the bloodstream.)
5) hypothermic coma
6) Marine life poisoning (jelly stings, reaction to rockfish spines, etc.)
7) Heart attack
8) Odd pressure/drug interactions

jyasaki put it pretty well, and it happens from time to time up here, although mostly in newer divers. You are correct though RW, we don't have stinging stuff up our way. (It’s too damn cold I think!). As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's not "me" that's worried about this recovery stuff... it's the "boat tender"! She knows just enough about diving to be dangerous as the saying goes, so she tends to worry a lot, unnecessarily IMHO.

Virtually all of the diving I do is in excess of 120' and about 40% of my dives are in the 155' to 230' range. If I can't resolve a problem at depth, there's not much likelihood of me surfacing unconscious!

[Peter Mack]

We were recovering a dead dolphin (i'm a biologist) which was substantially heavier than most crew member (bottlenose is about 200-300kg (@500lb)) we deflated one of the tubes, pulled it onboard and reinflated the tube.

pete

[Jono]

Personally, if I came across such a shady looking character in the water… the last place I would want him would be in my boat… A quick bowline around his ankle and tow him to the local coastguard station….
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[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Stoo

She knows just enough about diving to be dangerous as the saying goes, so she tends to worry a lot, unnecessarily IMHO.

Agreed, as the late Jacques Cousteau said:

Diving is a sport for active grand mothers

Virtually all of the diving I do is in excess of 120' and about 40% of my dives are in the 155' to 230' range. If I can't resolve a problem at depth, there's not much likelihood of me surfacing unconscious!

Rubbish, in twenty years of diving I have yet to see a diver surface unconscious. Missed decompression stops yes, but never unconscious. Why could you not solve the problem at a shallower depth. The loss of computers and back ups or even the loss of a decompression gas can mitigated at a shallower depth. The bends are not instant, it takes time for bubbles to collect together and build to proportions that will cause problems, thats why divers in the North Sea are allowed to use surface decompression. Surfacing without stops, into the chamber and back down to depth within 5 minutes.

Pete

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Jono

Personally, if I came across such a shady looking character in the water… the last place I would want him would be in my boat… A quick bowline around his ankle and tow him to the local coastguard station…. .

tut, tut . You can't claim salvage on Jono, but if you rescued his rib then the insurance company might pay 8 - 10% of its value

[Aidan]

Suggest one considers "Handy Billie" system which is a Block and Tackle.
If one uses a system of two blocks each with two pulley wheels, this should give a 4 times power or make it four times easier to pull them out.

Suggest one fixes to centre of A Frame with those who have a suitable one or opposing side or retrival to pull person into boat past the sponson. The Sponson should aid recovery but if necessary, one may have to soften a bit.
The higher it (the block and tackle) is attached in the boat the better.

I also am reminded of the Surf Rescue where they us speed of boat (jet ski with tow board) to retrieve an able body very quickly between rollers. They come along side slowing down to lower gunnel, firemans grip and hit the throttle which brings the body alongside firm and use the planeing effect to assist lift.
You need to be fit for this one.

I seem to recall it in Rib Interntional Mag a few Issues ago.

Not being able to get back into the boat is the plot of new movie where kids dive of yacht and forgot to putout ladder. The Freeboard would not allow them to get back in. Didnt see any more than the trailer, didnt think I needed to!!!!!
Happy New Year you all...

[Stoo]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Rubbish, in twenty years of diving I have yet to see a diver surface unconscious.

I am personally aware of at least two instances of this happening in Tobermory this past season alone. (Both "victims" were hauled back on board charter vessels by friends of mine.) I am not certain of the reasons for their situations, so I won't speculate, but neither was serious... since they were quickly retrieved. One required resuscitation on the boat; the other did not. One was run in a chamber, the other was examined and released. Both were in fairly shallow dives... 80/100' or so.

As I have said, I am not concerned about this happening to me... It's more to give the Better Half a degree of comfort, knowing that she could haul my butt out if required...

[The Garfish]

Originally Posted by Aidan

Block and Tackle.

fuk mee i woz towld dat de irysh waz barkin. noww i beleeve itt.

yorr barmier thann dat codprorn. heel bee onn inn a minit sujestin yewzin a tirfer orr sumfink.

gaRf