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Old 16 June 2013, 12:42   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kerny View Post
If you want "Grin Factor" go for an Etec
+1
I have the direct comparison between a Yamaha F100 4 stroke on an Buster XL and a 90hp E-TEC on my Searider .
The Yamaha does the job but has a temperament like a sleeping tablet ..
*it is propped well with a 17" Ballistic & WOT 6000rpm ...
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Old 16 June 2013, 12:44   #32
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Quote:
I have never been told that an extra bit of acceleration is useful in heavy chop or any other sea conditions for that matter.
We stepped up a few grades of pitch on an SR4 a couple of years ago. The top speed increased, and acceleration decreased. It makes it harder to drive in swell in that you have to be in a trough or on the front of a wave to open the throttle, whereas we used to be able to power up the back.

Whether that's relevant to a big, powerful Vipermax, I'm unqualified (unfortunately!) to say.
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Old 16 June 2013, 14:43   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clydeoutboards View Post


wow every time I have been out they are showing how to get the best out our of your boat/ rib/ etc and I have never been told that an extra bit of acceleration is useful in heavy chop or any other sea conditions for that matter.
Hi Dave, training boats run 4 strokes for very obvious reasons. Motoring schools run small, economical cars. That doesn't mean that they're better than performance cars, just better suited for the job.

If you're experience of offshore boat handling is via training boats/schools, I assume this will be basic level stuff.
If a helm is wishing to make passage in moderate to large seas, immediate throttle response and adequate power is essential.
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Old 16 June 2013, 15:25   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clydeoutboards View Post
Poly

i might be reading your posts wrong but all i was doing was showing the other side are coin.

re science. Yes I have not quoted lots of who said this and what as to be honest it is a well known fact and likewise if someone said the earth was flat i would not quote every scientist who an prove otherwise. If you are really interested google it or research it in other ways.
I've searched my usual scientific literature and can't find anything perhaps you can share the references?

Quote:
wow every time I have been out they are showing how to get the best out our of your boat/ rib/ etc and I have never been told that an extra bit of acceleration is useful in heavy chop or any other sea conditions for that matter. These people go out 5-6 days a week and in all weather so sorry I tend to follow what they say as i do think they are better informed than you sorry. oh and you are 1 person where as they are many and all say the same thing.
go and ask them if they adjust the throttle as they get to each wave - if they don't I wouldn't be taking heavy weather advice from them - there are plenty of competent instructors who will teach you the widely accepted technique: The Powerboat Training Website

Quote:
re the inependant reviews: these were independent. if you dont like what they say please argue with them and not me as I a just a messenger. oh and I have not see an independent review that refutes these fuel figures either.
how can I like or not like what they say if you don't post them?

This might be the closest I can find (but its probably not that scientific - doesn't necessarily represent typical rib use and is 13 yrs out of date). It says that whilst the Honda is more efficient at 5800 rpm the Etec is better at 3500!

Comparison Test: Five Outboard Motors - Popular Mechanics

Here's what BRP say - which I treat with as much cynacism as if Honda/Yam/Mariner/Suzuki were making the claims - http://www.chastheboat.co.uk/downloa...d%20docket.pdf but its far from the "flat earth society".

This is probably the closest I've seen to realistic testing side by side on ribs (or similar boats) in real conditions. http://www.fischemarine.com/admin/up...ew.aspx?id=220 Unfortunately there was controversy at the time over the etec figures although I seem to remember Ballistic vigorously defending them and that whilst there was a swedish article of a similar nature that showed up the anomalous L/hr figure at max rpm - the economies at mid revs were better for the Etec.
Quote:
re silly prices. again poly what other dealers do is there business. what is very clear is that lots of people can ripped off as they have no idea what is done for the warranty servicing and what the cost should be and this goes for ALL MAKES. They also, as you rightly state dont compare like for like i.e. fitting cost, devaluation etc.
Dave, but comparisons require data not "oooh" that'll be expensive. If you aren't willing to say what silly prices for installation are or what you believe the ridiculous third year service costs how will people know if you are talking p*sh or if people have been spinning you a line because you are the "competition"? If you've got credible data it can only help your argument that the long term ownership is expensive.

I'm not trying to pick a fight but I don't think its unreasonable that if one vendor knocks a competitor he might have some evidence to support his claims.
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Old 16 June 2013, 15:35   #35
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I think a four stroke is ideal for dinghy sailing rescue boats where the quiet noise allows you to relax while watching the boats sail around you. Likewise, they are ideal for all boats with sunbeds where the babes on the front don't want the boat going too quickly. Performance boats though...well....they're another kettle of fish
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Old 17 June 2013, 04:53   #36
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Hi Poly

I think this is getting nowhere as you seem to want to missquote all the time.

1: this is no etec vs honda/ mariner. this was 2 stroke vs 4 stroke and I sell 2 2 stroke makes
2: re not finding data on the difference between a 2 and 4 stroke. I found this in less than 10 seconds HowStuffWorks "How Two-stroke Engines Work"

3: I have never said ooh that will be expensive so again why missquote? oh and people do complain about the 3rd service cost and the installation costs so either please research this yourself and you will find that again what I am saying is the truth.
4: you keep asking me to do all the work but where is your data?
5: re go and ask them if they adjust the throttle as they get to each wave - if they don't I wouldn't be taking heavy weather advice from them - there are plenty of competent instructors who will teach you the widely accepted technique: The Powerboat Training Website

yet again Poly another missquote. the reviews show a difference of around 10% and what I said was that none of the instructors have said this is big enough amount to make a difference for them handling the boat in heavy seas.

Poly I am happy to proved wrong so instead of miss quoting me why dont you do your own research and that way you can prove me right!

Dave
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Old 17 June 2013, 05:39   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clydeoutboards View Post
I think this is getting nowhere as you seem to want to missquote all the time.
I'm not misquoting.
Quote:
1: this is no etec vs honda/ mariner. this was 2 stroke vs 4 stroke and I sell 2 2 stroke makes
except that your gripe with the 3 yr service interval and expensive third service only apply to one brand of engine.
Quote:
2: re not finding data on the difference between a 2 and 4 stroke. I found this in less than 10 seconds HowStuffWorks "How Two-stroke Engines Work"
eh? I'm thoroughly confused now - I was looking for scientific evidence that modern direct injection 2 strokes were less fuel efficient under real conditions not a "how it works site"
Quote:
3: I have never said ooh that will be expensive so again why missquote? oh and people do complain about the 3rd service cost and the installation costs so either please research this yourself and you will find that again what I am saying is the truth.
so what are these costs that people complain about? are the worse that the costs of other brands - and shopping around can't get better deals - you need to put numbers on things if you are going to label them as pricey.
Quote:
4: you keep asking me to do all the work but where is your data?
well I found you some links above - however that's not how it works on RIBnet. Make sure that what you post is correct
If you make a statement of fact, be prepared to back it up with some evidence.
You need to support your claims - not ask me to prove you are wrong. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just questioning if there is actually and good evidence you are right! You are the one claiming the scientist say it - so show us.
Quote:
5: re go and ask them if they adjust the throttle as they get to each wave - if they don't I wouldn't be taking heavy weather advice from them - there are plenty of competent instructors who will teach you the widely accepted technique: The Powerboat Training Website

yet again Poly another missquote. the reviews show a difference of around 10% and what I said was that none of the instructors have said this is big enough amount to make a difference for them handling the boat in heavy seas.
so are you changing your position that you only accelerate for the first 2 minutes of a 4 hour cruise? Have your expert instructors tried it? Because presented as 10% it doesn't sound like much - but as I said earlier the 10% figure is probably misleading. There are people here who have tried it and believe it makes a difference.
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Old 17 June 2013, 06:00   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clydeoutboards View Post
mmm from what I have seen the etec devalues the most, i have not seen a commercial company buy one, use 2 stroke technology which lets face it if it was that good we would all be driving to 2 stroke cars, drink more fuel, require you to buy separate oil, need to be installed by an etec service center unlike the yams/ honda, suzuki etc oh and as someone said the other day. you would not drive a car for 3 years without a service on a motorway buy you are expected to drive an outboard on the sea without a regular service! Oh and heck the prices of the 3rd service ooch !!!!!

Dont get me wrong what I wrote above is 100 bias and is the other side side of the story to the etec argument as I am a great believer in knowing the good and the bad before I part with my money.

Every engine has pro's and cons and it is very personal what you like and what you can live with.

Oh one last small thing. Etec owners talk about acceleration and though I am not a huge fan of test results this is true but shockingly by less than 10% in all the reviews I have seen. My other point on this is how much time do you intent accelerating has hard as you can compared to cruising? i.e. if you use your boat like i use mine hard acceleration is around 2 minutes for every 4 hours so for me the 12 seconds I save in accelerating is not a big thing.

However for others who are towing toys for 6 hours a day it is a big plus point.

Dave
Dave, time for a bit of straight talk. You're entitled to have your own opinion here, however, there's no point in accusing Poly of misquoting you when he really isn't. Maybe you're not expressing yourself very well, but Poly is debating what you put on the page, not what you MEANT to say. My reading of your post above is that you dismiss two stroke technology as old hat, dismiss BRP's 300 hour service cycle and focus on the eventual cost of the 3rd service. Running down the benefits of instant acceleration on a RIB is just laughable and yet you defend this position - expect to take some flak!

Fair dos though, I agree with you when you (a Honda dealer) say that you're 100% biased
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Old 17 June 2013, 08:12   #39
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Whilst being a huge fan of E-tecs I have also come to appreciate the refinement and quality of the Honda on the back of Taurus (formerly know as Pig's Ear :-) ) and going for a spin on Nigel's Galahad with the new Yamaha 250 showed just how impressive these big 4 strokes have become.

Also having watched several episodes of Ship Wreck Men I noticed that it's all Yamaha on their rescue boats and I guess these guys are going to know all about reliability etc.

If I had a new rib today it would have an E-tec or a Yamaha fitted, however I would not hesitate to buy a second hand rib if it had any of the major 4 stroke brands fitted.
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Old 17 June 2013, 11:48   #40
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I think all of you are missing the point. As most outboards produced are large good. it comes down to the service provider. If there is a good dealer/ service provider in your area that is who I would pick. I suspect that in real world there is very little between outboards (assuming it is properly sized for the job and correctly proped and setup). I am a happy E Tec owner how ever my service agent is about 90 miles away which is a pain

TSM
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