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Old 16 June 2013, 06:47   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poly View Post
Interestingly despite their being lots of Yam 4strokes around (e.g. on all the Ribeyes) I can't recall any major failures being reported...
Yep , Pickeys seem to love em
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Old 16 June 2013, 06:48   #22
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Hi Poly

re some of your points.

we have heard some silly prices for fittings of etecs and when added to the v high 3rd service it soon adds up.

The spin side of this is that some dealers charge the earth for a first service of 4 strokes. we had one in the other day where the poor guy got charge a whopping 170.00 for a first service on a honda 50 where as we charge a 3rd of that.

devaluation: this is simply what I have seen and if less than 5 years old remember they should also be set up by an approved dealer to maintain warranty. either way that is my experience and I stand by it

re indeed, personally I find it off putting when a salesman goes beyond telling you the truth about a product and starts to put knock the competition.

er it is the truth and if it is not please point out where it is not. I am also not trying to sell anything and have not mentioned any make or model and more am pointing out that there are 2 sides to every argument.

re fuel. the reviews I have seen for 150 and 250 show that fuel is 10-25% more on the 2 strokes compared to the best of the 4 strokes. If that is a lot or not a lot as i said before will depend on the user.

re acceleration. yes 10% is better but it is still only 10% and again this comes down to how an individual uses the boat. Interestingly you comment on needing this 10% in heavy swell.

My personal experience is different in the fact that I have been on lot training boats they have also wanted 4 strokes and they have never said that the extra 10% would be great and make there life easier.

I am not saying you are wrong, but my gut feel is more to go with what the trainers are saying as they use them every day and I am sure if the benefit was as big as often implied they would buy opti's or etec's.

re 2 stroke vs 4 stroke in cars. again we will need to agree to disagree big time on this. I am ignoreing your comparison as we both know comparing 100 hours in the sea can not be compared with 100 hours in the water. what we can all do though is google information on the difference between the 2 types of engine and make up your own mind.

Interestingly every time i am done this brings to light the same points and please if you disagree with these please argue with the people who write them and not me for quoting scientists.

2 strokes

can accelerate faster per rpm than 4 strokes
lighter

4 strokes

more efficient on fuel
last longer due to dedicated lubrication system

so as i said right at the start there are pro's and cons of both types of engine and all I was doing was posting the other side of the debate.

Dave
ps Poly FYI we sell 2 makes of new 2 stroke engines and 1 of these is bought through barrus!
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Old 16 June 2013, 07:04   #23
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Originally Posted by clydeoutboards View Post
all the rest of it I deleted because it took up too much space not because I agree with it..

2 strokes

can accelerate faster per rpm than 4 strokes
lighter

4 strokes

more efficient on fuel
last longer due to dedicated lubrication system
I may not be the most impartial observer either but this is complete bollocks. The etec is clearly the best engine for a Vipermax but it may not be for all brands.
Watch the videos: BRP, Mercury, Yamaha all make convincing arguments for their products but you can read between the lines and work out the truth. I would love a VMAX SHO but I've never seen one in Europe??



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Old 16 June 2013, 07:56   #24
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Originally Posted by gotchiguy View Post
The etec is clearly the best engine for a Vipermax
Depends on the set up and intended use.................. And you haven't driven mine yet
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Old 16 June 2013, 07:57   #25
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Depends on the set up and intended use.................. And you haven't driven mine yet
I didn't expect you'd ever let me
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Old 16 June 2013, 08:29   #26
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The acceleration and throttle response with my Etec combined with a 4 blade prop is stunning. It took a bit of getting used to, but is great when running in big seas. I've driven boats with big 4strokes, they do feel a bit lazy by comparison.
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Old 16 June 2013, 08:29   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clydeoutboards View Post
Hi Poly

re some of your points.

we have heard some silly prices for fittings of etecs and when added to the v high 3rd service it soon adds up.

The spin side of this is that some dealers charge the earth for a first service of 4 strokes. we had one in the other day where the poor guy got charge a whopping 170.00 for a first service on a honda 50 where as we charge a 3rd of that.
so you want people to believe that the scary prices you have heard for Etec services etc are all true but that any high prices quoted by a honda dealer are an anomaly - can you see a contradiction here. It would be interesting to see what a "silly price for fitting" is and what it included, some people are guilt of not comparing like with like - so one person is rigging all the electrics, steering etc and the other is drilling 4 holes and doing up some bolts!

Quote:
devaluation: this is simply what I have seen and if less than 5 years old remember they should also be set up by an approved dealer to maintain warranty. either way that is my experience and I stand by it
you may well be right - I don't follow the 2nd hand engine market. I've not noticed a distinct difference in the 2nd hand boat market but there are so many factors involved there, and nobody knows whether advertised price = sale price, so it is hard to say. I think the approved dealer for service to maintain warranty is a bubble which will eventually burst as it has in the car world.

Quote:
re indeed, personally I find it off putting when a salesman goes beyond telling you the truth about a product and starts to put knock the competition.

er it is the truth and if it is not please point out where it is not. I am also not trying to sell anything and have not mentioned any make or model and more am pointing out that there are 2 sides to every argument.
no presenting a 100% biased view (even with that caveat on it) is not presenting both sides of the argument.

I'm also smart enough to know what your search engine marketing was doing even if you don't know it yourself!
Quote:
re fuel. the reviews I have seen for 150 and 250 show that fuel is 10-25% more on the 2 strokes compared to the best of the 4 strokes. If that is a lot or not a lot as i said before will depend on the user.
I bet Etec marketing can find numbers that contradict those.
Quote:
re acceleration. yes 10% is better but it is still only 10% and again this comes down to how an individual uses the boat. Interestingly you comment on needing this 10% in heavy swell.
I don't know whether "10%" is a meaningful number or not. Acceleration is rarely a linear thing. I haven't tested like by like so I don't know how much difference it makes - my point was many RIBs are not only accelerating for a few seconds in 4 hours - they are constantly working the throttle to deal with the conditions, so acceleration is important to people other than skiers.

Quote:
My personal experience is different in the fact that I have been on lot training boats they have also wanted 4 strokes and they have never said that the extra 10% would be great and make there life easier.
what do training boats do a lot though? very often they sit at relatively low speed bashing into pontoons and picking up MOB dummies. Unless the RYA specifically run workshops for trainers comparing engine models they are not necessarily any better informed than the rest of the engine buying public.

Quote:
re 2 stroke vs 4 stroke in cars. again we will need to agree to disagree big time on this. I am ignoreing your comparison as we both know comparing 100 hours in the sea can not be compared with 100 hours in the water. what we can all do though is google information on the difference between the 2 types of engine and make up your own mind.
(I assume you meant 100 hours in sea with 100 hours on road!) but your argument is misleading. In my experience of relatively modern cars - other than oil changes the bits that actually get worn / replaced on cars are nothing to do with the engine - they are breaks and suspension. The last time something actually needed repairing on an car engine of mine it was a seal that had gone after around 2000 hours of driving.

Quote:
Interestingly every time i am done this brings to light the same points and please if you disagree with these please argue with the people who write them and not me for quoting scientists.
Scientists - independent researchers in peer reviewed publications or people working in the boating industry? Convention when 'quoting scientists' is to provide the citations to the original publication so your audience can assess its credibility, and ensure you've correctly understood the interpretation and limitation of the experiments. We've already identified that skiers, training boats, fair weather cruisers and 'adventurers' all have different needs and driving styles. Add in boat load, divers, etc - and I doubt there is 'one best engine for all'.

So if anyone is going to trust any dealer on "their servicing being cheaper" or their "fuel economy" being better or their engine attracting better looking women etc - then I'd suggest you want to see some evidence appropriate to your usage and then be wiling to test the assumptions, e.g. on costs of servicing at your local dealer, or what fuel costs etc.
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Old 16 June 2013, 08:37   #28
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Originally Posted by Mollers View Post
The acceleration and throttle response with my Etec combined with a 4 blade prop is stunning. It took a bit of getting used to, but is great when running in big seas. I've driven boats with big 4strokes, they do feel a bit lazy by comparison.
Is there much difference in speed/economy/acceleration with the 4 blader?
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Old 16 June 2013, 09:40   #29
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Originally Posted by Nos4r2 View Post

Is there much difference in speed/economy/acceleration with the 4 blader?
Dunno, not tried it with a three blader. :-D When I first ran this boat after my last (now Silverfox ), I had to adjust my driving style big time. A little too much gas in swell and we were going skywards. :-D
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Old 16 June 2013, 12:05   #30
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Poly

i might be reading your posts wrong but all i was doing was showing the other side are coin.

re science. Yes I have not quoted lots of who said this and what as to be honest it is a well known fact and likewise if someone said the earth was flat i would not quote every scientist who an prove otherwise. If you are really interested google it or research it in other ways.

Quote:
what do training boats do a lot though? very often they sit at relatively low speed bashing into pontoons and picking up MOB dummies. Unless the RYA specifically run workshops for trainers comparing engine models they are not necessarily any better informed than the rest of the engine buying public.
wow every time I have been out they are showing how to get the best out our of your boat/ rib/ etc and I have never been told that an extra bit of acceleration is useful in heavy chop or any other sea conditions for that matter. These people go out 5-6 days a week and in all weather so sorry I tend to follow what they say as i do think they are better informed than you sorry. oh and you are 1 person where as they are many and all say the same thing.

re the inependant reviews: these were independent. if you dont like what they say please argue with them and not me as I a just a messenger. oh and I have not see an independent review that refutes these fuel figures either.

re
Quote:
I don't know whether "10%" is a meaningful number or not. Acceleration is rarely a linear thing. I haven't tested like by like so I don't know how much difference it makes - my point was many RIBs are not only accelerating for a few seconds in 4 hours - they are constantly working the throttle to deal with the conditions, so acceleration is important to people other than skiers.
As I said before this will vary person to person. 10% acceleration might mean a huge amount to you and well worth the extra fuel and devaluation but to many it will not and again all I am doing is showing the other side of the argument.

re silly prices. again poly what other dealers do is there business. what is very clear is that lots of people can ripped off as they have no idea what is done for the warranty servicing and what the cost should be and this goes for ALL MAKES. They also, as you rightly state dont compare like for like i.e. fitting cost, devaluation etc.


Dave
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