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Old 04 June 2013, 19:05   #81
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Children children... We are drifting somewhat from the original subject.

I'm even beginning to regret joining in.

So. Can I summarise:
- people die by propellers
- the human race is its own worst enemy
- tech can always be improved
- the more you complicate a system the more likely it is to break or get bypassed
- nothing is the answer to everything.

Everyone happy?

So, can we all just calm down & get back to designing the super deadman or teaching the world about kill cords or whatever your solution is instead of wasting time here arguing with each other!

In the words of a large retail establishment: "every little helps"
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Old 04 June 2013, 19:14   #82
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Originally Posted by 9D280 View Post
Children children... We are drifting somewhat from the original subject.

I'm even beginning to regret joining in.

So. Can I summarise:
- people die by propellers
- the human race is its own worst enemy
- tech can always be improved
- the more you complicate a system the more likely it is to break or get bypassed
- nothing is the answer to everything.

Everyone happy?

So, can we all just calm down & get back to designing the super deadman or teaching the world about kill cords or whatever your solution is instead of wasting time here arguing with each other!
I can agree with most of that, if we can all agree:

Quote:
- tech can always be improved
Quote:
nothing is the answer to everything
but imperfect or incomplete answers are better than no answers at all.
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Old 04 June 2013, 19:15   #83
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Originally Posted by 9D280 View Post
Wot he sedd
Careful, you don't want to sound too much like a voice of reason
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Old 04 June 2013, 19:17   #84
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but imperfect or incomplete answers are better than no answers at all.

I can agree with that too, if we can agree that answers with more imperfections than the current solution are pointless.

I also agree that tech can always be improved,as long as it's feasable and realistic.
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Old 04 June 2013, 19:22   #85
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Trying to get back on track, a free publication called Sydney Afloat which is targeted at Sydney boaters, has dedicated this months editorial to propellor accidents.

The rest of the publication has letters in regards to prop guards and some prop guard advertisements as well which seems to be our solution combined with education.

We have had a Prop Aware promotion in New South Wales for a few years now. Stickers are provided free to be stuck on transoms to remind people that there is a prop near there. It is obvious to us, but maybe not to our inexperienced guests.

Note that all vessels above 5hp must have a licensed operator in New South Wales. With a licence renewal and boat registration you get a pamphlet reminding us of the proper navigation lights and another highlighting the dangers of propellors.

The editorial in Sydney Afloat talks about workplace accidents and fines imposed by Workcover (a government department that looks after the safety if workplaces).

Here is a link

http://www.afloat.com.au/afloat-maga...d#.Ua5zycsayK0

And here is an excerpt from the editorial.

"On 31 July 2009, the UNSW School of Biological Earth and Environmental Sciences was conducting a field trip in Darling Harbour in an outboard powered RIB. The licensed boat operator was turning at about 10-12 knots, lost control of the RIB, and three passengers were ejected. A student (Ms. Gall) among those ejected was struck by the boat propeller. The University was sued by WorkCover NSW in the NSW Industrial Relations Commission for failing to comply with the Occupational Health and Safety Act of 2000, and fined $100,000.

This case follows the Australian Military (ADFA) being fined $210,000 for not using propeller guards in response to the organisation being sued by COMCARE (Oliver Minchin incident, see Letters)."

Warning: This publication does have some rather political views sometimes.
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Old 04 June 2013, 19:47   #86
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Originally Posted by Poly View Post
How about:

1. Clip round leg like most people here do.
2. Modify dry suit to add a secure fixing.
3. Use the "dog leash" method described by 250kts in the other thread
4. Use a belt (such as your weight belt).
5. Wear a life jacket when on the boat and clip to that. If you are feeling safety conscious a lifejacket is probably wise anyway. It would cost less than $300.
1) doesn't allow me to assist passengers or weigh anchor while the engine idles in neutral or very slowly in forward (to maintain a fixed position or take up the anchor line tension for instance) with a kill device on me. Basically I am stuck at the helm instead of being able to move even 1m away.
2) ditto
3) ditto
4) Not going to wear a 12kg weight belt all day just to have a place to attach a kill cord which is perfectly functional - just limited in function around my wrist.
5) Don't need a life jacket with a drysuit on + lots of exceptionally bouyant undergarments (note 12 kg weight belt + ~7kg backplate with lead on that too = 19+ kgs of positive buoyancy which is actually more than a life jacket). And I'd need 2 sets of life jackets then anyway. One giant one (for everyone aboard) for most days when I'm wearing drysuits, a second normal sized one for the occasional days when we're not in drysuits/diving.

Kill cords work. Their functionality for you is obviously fine. I use mine whenever I can, but the reality is that occasionally I have to unclip or give them helm over to someone else. And the kill cord isn't always reclipped as it should be. A point which many other people noted as well, sometimes its forgotten etc. A completely waterproof unpowered RFID "fob" without which the engine cannot run would be fanastic for me as a kill switch and potentially do double duty as a security device - the exact same functionality is already built into many auto keys.
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Old 04 June 2013, 20:02   #87
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Self-evidently, no. This is an "opinion".

My "opinion" is that there is a general failure of members on this forum to acknowledge and accept a responsibility to seek new methods of mitigating the risks posed by runaway open boats and propeller strikes by propeller driven boats generally.
really? 4 different threads: hundreds of posts, thousands of views, various ideas discussed for improving kill cords, emphasis that the existing system works when used. Majority of people seem to use a cord all or the vast majority of time. Has someone presented a working, demonstrable, affordable system or do you expect individuals to invest in their own solution? Since you feel so strongly will you be developing an improved system? Are there a significant number of cases where the existing system when used correctly is ineffective? I'm not aware of them - so in my opinion that solution is to get people to use the existing system - something that many people on ribnet feel passionately about and are actively trying to promote, and something that people can do today. There are various "low tech" solutions that have been suggested to make the existing solution more likely to be used.

Quote:
I consider that responsibility for seeking solutions weighs particularly on owners of RIBs because my perception is that RIBS are disproportionately involved in leisure boat accidents.
does the evidence support your hypothesis? my gut feel is that there are more fatalities from diving, canoeing/kayaking and sailing than ribs - I don't have the data to determine if that is more per hour of activity. In any case I expect we are all more likely to die in the car on the way to / from the boat than on the boat.

Quote:
If you feel that the criticism is aimed at you, then please feel free to feel offended.
Tim, you need to differentiate disagreeing with my opinion from calling me (or anyone else) a disgrace. Your closing statement suggests you intend to offend - I've already made clear that we won't tolerate that.

You've obviously not read the various threads on this though - as if you did you will see that I "started" the one on 'improved' engine kill systems!

However this thread is not about kill cords (take that discussion over here: High tech kill cords - the next generation?). This thread is about "propellor" accident stats. I think it is legitimate to question and understand the stats because:

(1) Other claims would have us believe that we need regulation because this is very common. It appears from PGIC's reports that it is rate in UK waters - so UK regulations would have no impact of brits abroad.

(2) PGIC's data seems to suggest (as I suspected) that most prop injuries do not happen from a MoB / absence of a kill cord - they strike people who were intentionally in the water. If you are going to solve a problem / improve a technology its best to understand the issue first.

Rather than dismissing PGIC (which might have been tempting considering he is promoting his own agenda that at least has some loose association to his commercial interests) this thread was split out to encourage that the data might be presented and understood properly by all who were considering the risks they might encounter: neither overstated nor ignored. Unfortunately you've detracted from discussing the problem.
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Old 04 June 2013, 20:34   #88
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1) doesn't allow me to assist passengers or weigh anchor while the engine idles in neutral or very slowly in forward (to maintain a fixed position or take up the anchor line tension for instance) with a kill device on me. Basically I am stuck at the helm instead of being able to move even 1m away.
I understand your issue. I've been in the same situation. I've also seen more experienced helmsmen handle much bigger boats without needing to leave the helm. Perhaps it is not our kill cord which is at fault but our general systems of work?
Quote:
5) Don't need a life jacket with a drysuit on + lots of exceptionally bouyant undergarments (note 12 kg weight belt + ~7kg backplate with lead on that too = 19+ kgs of positive buoyancy which is actually more than a life jacket). And I'd need 2 sets of life jackets then anyway. One giant one (for everyone aboard) for most days when I'm wearing drysuits, a second normal sized one for the occasional days when we're not in drysuits/diving.
mmm... you wouldn't convince the "health and safety" folks over here with that argument. If you are wearing a dry suit the recommendation here would be for a 275N jacket - [which is more than your 19kg]. I know that divers rarely wear lifejackets - whether that is well thought through might be a different debate. Many people here will have multiple jackets for different scenarious e.g. foam bouyancy aid for rescue boat work, standard lifejacket for summer, 275N for winter...

Quote:
Kill cords work. Their functionality for you is obviously fine. I use mine whenever I can, but the reality is that occasionally I have to unclip or give them helm over to someone else. And the kill cord isn't always reclipped as it should be. A point which many other people noted as well, sometimes its forgotten etc.
I concede all of that but I would start with asking how you might make your existing systems of work safer: reduce need to unclip (e.g. does the helm need to weigh anchor or could someone else, could you kill the engine, could you unclip the cord from controls when not in use - forcing you to reconnect to restart etc).
Quote:
A completely waterproof unpowered RFID "fob" without which the engine cannot run would be fanastic for me as a kill switch and potentially do double duty as a security device - the exact same functionality is already built into many auto keys.
How would you know it was working? If its easy you could implement it and report back. You presumably still need to swap "devices" between helmsmen when you go for a dive (otherwise engine stops). That introduces the risk that the other helm doesn't attach it to themselves and it remains on the boat when they do not. You said earlier that it was likely you would forget and take it for a dive - that will leave the boat disabled - it will need a means to override (i.e. a means of failure!). How far do the 'autokeys' work?

From PGIC's reports it looks like as a diver you are much more likely to get hit by a prop when you are in the water intentionally than after falling overboard. I may be misguided but that phenomenon with divers, skiers, swimmers etc worries me far more than forgetting the kill cord and falling out. Is it possible that one high profile problem masks other higher risk issues?
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Old 04 June 2013, 20:48   #89
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Originally Posted by kubcat View Post
Trying to get back on track, a free publication called Sydney Afloat which is targeted at Sydney boaters, has dedicated this months editorial to propellor accidents.

The editorial in Sydney Afloat talks about workplace accidents and fines imposed by Workcover (a government department that looks after the safety if workplaces).

Here is a link

Editor's column - Exposed propellers are now both a safety...and financial hazard
Thanks for posting the Afloat link, that reminds me I have better things to do than offer any more suggestions in this environment. See ya next year.

gary
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Old 05 June 2013, 03:27   #90
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We have thought it through quite a bit, thank you.



For those who think scream detection is silly, we suggest you see some of the work done in this field:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl...%2C37&as_sdtp=


gary
None of that work was done in a marine environment with a running outboard and is therefore irrelevant, the cost and complexity to make that work would clearly be well beyond and realistic commercial investment - even if it was a realistic answer.

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Seconded.

So far all I've heard is babble.
+1!

For anyone that has read the whole thread I think I find myself on the side of reason - None of the posts suggesting alternatives or additions to kill cords have come up with something that is cost effective, likely to be adopted by engine manufacturers, reliable and practical - even scream detection!
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When a boat looks that good who needs tubes!!!
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