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Old 29 November 2009, 15:54   #31
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Originally Posted by Polwart View Post
chewy whilst I agree with your point to some extent:

(1) he'll only be in posession of the qualification to do commercial work IF he passes all the relevant bits first. I'm sure the pass rate is however pretty high -- does that imply standards aren't high? or does it suggest that actually the complexity or skill levels aren't that demanding?

(2) there are places which offer you the chance to train and qualify to drive a car (and I guess a bus/minibus/hgv) in similarly short/compressed time periods. In theory you can drive commercially the next day.

And you do sound as though you are "putting him down" as you have done all the way through the thread!
Yes it does sound as though I'm putting him down.
I could go and do my direct access so I can ride a super bike, the course can be done in one week and I could ride a bike capable of 180mph once I'd completed it. I have the relevent license but that does not make me a good rider.
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Old 29 November 2009, 16:00   #32
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Well, no - the pass rate isn't as high as you think. I've failed almost 50% of those I've examined this year, and next week I'm re-examinimng 3 who were previously failed by another examiner.

The standards are pretty clear, and it isn't an easy pass. You genuinely do need to know your stuff, and be a proficient boat-handler
Ian - thats good to hear. I guess however thats not a dissimilar pass/fail rate to driving tests - which probably makes the rest of my post all the more valid!

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Originally Posted by Zubenelgenubi
What sort of standards are applied here? Who examines the examiners?
actually I think there are fairly detailed processes in place to maintain consistency across the country for the various exams - at the end of the day it does involve a degree of judgement and so borderline cases might fall either way.

However I think its worth bearing in mind that what the OP was asking about was not the PBI exam - it was basically an entry test to establish that he was good enough to get on the course. IIRC this was introduced because there was a concern that the practical boat handling skills of prospective instructors wasn't always adequate and the trainers were spending too much time coaching them on their basic skills rather than focussing on the skills of Instructing.

Of course if the OP now fails any of the rest of the course he will look like a bit of a tit having claimed the entry exam was a piece of piss! But given his claimed level of practical experience at manouvering/handling boats (if not at passage planning/making) then the practical elements really shouldn't have been that difficult... unless he is just sitting in the boat for 1000s of hours.
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Old 29 November 2009, 16:03   #33
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I know a PB Instructor went on a crew intro course at Poole and was the worse out of the lot.
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Old 29 November 2009, 16:14   #34
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Yes it does sound as though I'm putting him down.
I could go and do my direct access so I can ride a super bike, the course can be done in one week and I could ride a bike capable of 180mph once I'd completed it. I have the relevent license but that does not make me a good rider.
I think we are possibly in agreement. A better analogy (to driving a boat with fare paying passengers) is to go and learn to drive a bus (there are places offeing 1-2 wk courses). However it might not be so easy to find someone who will let me jump in their coach and drive it (likewise if I had enough to buy a coach getting insurance won't be trivial with 0 yrs experience). I am guessing that it is equally difficult getting boat jobs when the inks still wet on the certificate. Neither boat nor bus job is impossible, but the more demanding the role the less likely - and actually both markets have plenty of competition - so the new boy will get the shit job and shit pay!
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Old 29 November 2009, 16:17   #35
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I think we are possibly in agreement. A better analogy (to driving a boat with fare paying passengers) is to go and learn to drive a bus (there are places offeing 1-2 wk courses). However it might not be so easy to find someone who will let me jump in their coach and drive it (likewise if I had enough to buy a coach getting insurance won't be trivial with 0 yrs experience). I am guessing that it is equally difficult getting boat jobs when the inks still wet on the certificate. Neither boat nor bus job is impossible, but the more demanding the role the less likely - and actually both markets have plenty of competition - so the new boy will get the shit job and shit pay!
Yep I agree, you word things better so it doesn't sound like your putting people down though.
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Old 29 November 2009, 16:19   #36
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chewy whilst I agree with your point to some extent:

(1) he'll only be in posession of the qualification to do commercial work IF he passes all the relevant bits first. I'm sure the pass rate is however pretty high -- does that imply standards aren't high? or does it suggest that actually the complexity or skill levels aren't that demanding?

(2) there are places which offer you the chance to train and qualify to drive a car (and I guess a bus/minibus/hgv) in similarly short/compressed time periods. In theory you can drive commercially the next day.

And you do sound as though you are "putting him down" as you have done all the way through the thread!
I really dont think you can compare the CE Advanced Instructor ticket to HGV licence. Apart form anything else regarding experience and ability. If all goes wrong in a truck there is a hard shoulder on the motorway but on the water we dont have that luxury!

My experience of gaining my PBI ticket was that it was "relatively" simple although I wouldnt have felt confident doing the instructor course very soon after my level 2. Granted, I did my PBI ticket before the skills assessment came in which meant that my trainer had to not only teach us to teach but also assess our skills at the same time. Which i would imagine will have made his job soma bit harder.

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Originally Posted by Zubenelgenubi
After not even knowing what the powerboat instructor skill assessement was all about, next we know he has passed it, it was apparently a piece of pi$$.
What sort of standards are applied here? Who examines the examiners?
To become a PBI essentially you have to be good Level 2 powerboater. The course is two days with a powerboat trainer followed by a an assesment by a second trainer who decides if you've passed or not.

Fair play to the guy for his hard work and achievement but I personally think experience is the more important than just gertting the tickets but hey ho, if he can pass, he can pass. Well done to him
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Old 29 November 2009, 17:12   #37
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The course is two days with a powerboat trainer followed by a an assesment by a second trainer who decides if you've passed or not.
This is a common misconception. It is a three day course and moderated by a second trainer on the last day. The two trainers together decide if someone passes or not.
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Old 29 November 2009, 17:57   #38
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I really dont think you can compare the CE Advanced Instructor ticket to HGV licence. Apart form anything else regarding experience and ability. If all goes wrong in a truck there is a hard shoulder on the motorway but on the water we dont have that luxury!
Stewart - thats the thing about analogies they are not meant to be direct comparisons. That said - I think the comparison to bus driving is reasonable. I'm not sure if you are "bigging up" the difficulty of poweboat driving or dismissing the skills required to drive a bus/hgv. Your "analogy" that if it all goes wrong in a truck that there is a hard shoulder is somewhat contrived. The hard shoulder only exists on some roads, as you know. Whats more it also only deals with a certain range of problems (many of which are mechanical - and as far as I know mechanical skills are not in the APB cert!). I probably won't win a lot of friends round here for saying this - but I think the probability of killing someone (whether one of your passengers or a "3rd party") is higher on a bus than on a typical powerboat, and with 10 tonnes + of bus doing 60 mph and 50 people on board the potential for total carnage is at least as high as anything a powerboat with 12 pax would be likely to result in. Not that I am trivialising commercial powerboat driving, and I certainly recognise that there are a minority of commercial skippers who need to opperate in virtually any conditions, in difficult waters, at night etc... but in reality (and to bring us vaguely back on to the thread) its likely that any newly qualified commercial skipper will be driving the same established routes repetatively in good conditions and daylight.
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Old 29 November 2009, 23:23   #39
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This is a common misconception. It is a three day course and moderated by a second trainer on the last day. The two trainers together decide if someone passes or not.
2 days.....3 days of training doesnt sound like very much.

I think ill get a bag of magic beans & plant them & see what sort of certificate grows, it would probably take longer to grow the certiificate than it seems it takes to do a course to get one...
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Old 30 November 2009, 01:46   #40
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Fair play to the guy for his hard work and achievement but I personally think experience is the more important than just gertting the tickets but hey ho
Indeed, when I did mine experience was clear to see as was lack of it....
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